I see many Republicans telling the Tea Partiers that this is not courageous but foolish, IMHO, many Americans will demand to “throw all the rascals out” of the House specially, so as the majority there are Republican…
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/09/30/2698471/republicans-against-the-shutdown/
More in the link.
Again, that would be their opinion, not a fact. And if you project that this will damage Republicans’ electoral prospects, then you should be happy about the shutdown. And don’t tell me you would “like a responsible opposition party”. That’s just crocodile tear bull.
By the way, you listed quite a few Republicans in your quote there. Yet the “rebel” Republican “moderates” could only muster 7 votes today in their “rebellion”.
The whole reasoning for opposing this and calling it a bill (when it is a law) is an opinion too, and an uneducated one.
Party before country is also not a good position to keep. The point stands, several the republicans that are following the party or being forced by their base to follow this foolishness are not confident on your sorry opinion here.
Not even your fellow conservative adaher advocates holding the debt ceiling hostage for this.
Why do you think it’s a good idea? Do you assume that only Republicans will do it, and only when it’s “really important”?
Debt ceiling issue is a couple of weeks away.
This “thought” epitomises what is so detestable about Republican “thinking.” Deliberately sabotaging the economy is admirable if it furthers one’s electoral chances. :smack: The fact, as evidenced in the quoted post, that America’s enemies believe the Democrats should or do act in the same unprincipled way shows some mental confusion.
It would have taken only 17 GOP Representatives to pass a resolution; Gigobuster quotes many distinguished Republicans advocating sanity, including 11 in the House. What happened? Hastert Rule?
As I said, crocodile tears.
Ah, I see. Then consider it my attempt to get the subject back onto the debt ceiling, seeing as how it was my original intent with this thread.
Not sure it’ll work, or if it’s relevant, but there you go. 
In fact, let me ask you the same question I asked adaher: assume that the Republicans don’t get (all of) what they want with this shutdown. Do you advocate them trying again with the debt ceiling?
You keep saying that, I do not think it means what you think it means.
In this case it is the crocodiles (the Republicans) the ones eating the creature (the government) with fake remorse. The problem here is thinking that the American people will not see that and arrive to the conclusion that it is Party before country what the Republicans are pushing hard nowadays.
Hence the latest polls showing that the bulk of the blame will land on the Republicans for those crocodile tears and other reasons.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/30/us-usa-fiscal-poll-idUSBRE98T0J720130930
IMO, government shutdowns are a great thing. I would prefer they would be more gradual (as when you drown one in a bathtub), but I’ll take what I can get. Unfortunately, it won’t last, but any time Americans wake up and the government is shut down and the sun is still shining and the birds are still chirping and life goes on, it’s a good teachable moment.
And as long as US creditors are being paid (which takes what - $370B annually, which is easily covered by revenues), US is not bankrupt.
Here’s the important point, at least in my opinion. The US political system has teetered along at least basically successfully for over 200 years, for at least 100 or so of which it has at least vaguely resembled the way it works now (I mean, the legal framework has been mostly the same, barring constitutional amendments, but the two party system resembling the one we have now etc doesn’t date all the way back to 1789.)
For much of that time, control of the presidency and two houses of congress has been split between parties. And yet, things have continued to get done. That’s because on top of the actual legalities of how a bill became a law there has been a level of understanding about the procedures, about how the majority and minority parties acted, when filibusters were threatened, etc. So despite this divided government, things continued to get done. Laws were passed. Infrastructure was built and maintained. The country improved. At any point in this history, any party that did not control the presidency but controlled one house of congress, or at least 40 votes in the senate, could have unilaterally decided that NOTHING was going to happen if it did not perfectly align with that party’s vision. No compromise, no meeting halfway, just my way or absolutely nothing happens. The way that filibustering and lawmaking is set up, that is 100% legal and has been forever. And yet (or so goes the liberal view of the last 10 years or so of history) no one did that until now, because until now the people we elected had enough flexibility of thought, enough willingness to compromise, enough belief in the power of government to do good, enough of SOMETHING, to NOT go into petulant no-no-no-no mode. Which the Republicans have now done.
Can I prove with mathematical certainty that the recent behavior of congressional Republicans is distinctly different in quality from what came before them? I can not… and in fact I’d be interested in seeing a discussion of precisely that topic. However I strongly suspect it to be true, and that’s why your constant disclaiming that what they’re doing is legal etc etc etc rings so hollow.
The American people also see a Senate that rejects everything put in front of it by the House. Which led to the shutdown.
AFAIR, last time I saw it (yesterday), 69% said Republicans behaved like spoiled children. 58% said that of Democrats. 46% would blame Republicans, 36% would blame Obama. I don’t see a drastic difference.
So the answer is, yes, you advocate Republicans opposing the raising of the debt ceiling unless the ACA is delayed or repealed?
(Genuine question; I’m trying to figure out what your answer to my question is. Please clarify if I’m not getting it right.)
You see, I and a lot of Americans see it as Democrats saying my way or the highway and refusing to compromise. As in “clean CR or the puppy (government) gets it”.
I would put something on it, yes. Not something enormous. Something like removing federal subsidies for the Congressmen and their staffs for their Obamacare premiums.
See, the “debt ceiling” limit exists. If raising it is just a pro forma thing, then it has no reason to exist.
Wrong, the poll refers to congresspersons. That is the Senate and the House are included.
Now, you’re starting to catch on.
Funny how the “Constitutional scholar” who is our President now didn’t “catch on” to that when he voted against raising the debt ceiling.
A quick question to Democrats: was Democrat-led House in 1984 trying to destroy US economy and did they hold the US hostage when they voted not to raise the Debt Ceiling twice?
Well I can straight away see some critical differences in the two situations…
a) the debate was over increased military spending, rather than the Democrats trying to strip funding for a law already approved
b) hadn’t the president at the time already shut down the govt three years earlier by vetoing a budget?