What are the prospects for a left-wing analogue to Fox News?

Liberal media consumption and conservative media consumption are just different animals. I dissent from others regarding the agenda of Fox… I don’t think Fox has any political agenda whatsoever. Zero. I think they merely see a large, under-exploited market – conservatives who want to be told things they already know and hear opinions that they already agree with – and try to give that market what they want. Not to imply that all conservatives are like that, but apparently in recent years a meaninfully sized market has emerged.

I do think the mainstream news has an institutional liberal bias in the form of individual journalists, but I don’t see any concerted or coherent to put a “liberal spin” on things.

Put it like this… Dan Rather went to air with the Bush service records story. Someone else called them on it. No doubt it was aired due to liberal bias, but did liberal bias cause Rather to apologize and CBS to retract the statement and apologize? There’s a liberal bias, but there’s also a bias toward maintaining journalistic integrity when mistakes are made.

Contrast this with Fox News… in the nonstop coverage of the Iraq Invasion, I remember the news coverage as it was portrayed when there was still a lot of confidence that the WMD pretext would be proven out and America would emerge shining. Every few hours, there was a breathlessly aired Major Breaking Story on Fox about “WMD’S FOUND!!!” Inevitably it turned out to be nothing. No correction was ever issued by Fox. In contrast, CNN never reported the initial non-story… they just ran a periodic back-page story summarizing the erroneous WMD finds of the most recent few days. Fox simply was rushing to press with what its constituency wanted to read. It had to be done soon because the news had a short shelf date. Having done that, their task was complete.

So in summary… in society as we know it, no apparent emergence of a liberal propaganda powerhouse is likely. That’s IMO.

Yes, indeed I agree. I hope you are not inferring that I’m either an ideologue or paranoid though, because that would certainly skirt the boundaries of the rules here in Great Debates and turn this forum into nothing less than a place to exchange ad hominems.

Anyways, to look back at what I actually said, I said “every group, every person” is biased. And that is fact that isn’t something that is up for debate. Being biased doesn’t mean you are an ideologue, and just because an organization or an individual has a bias does not mean it must affect their work to a damaging degree. I’ve had extensive academic training in economics, which is a social science. In my academic experience in virtually any thing I was involved in that involved research it was stressed that we look at things without our biases.

But to deny that we are biased is a folly, and that is all that I meant with my comment. For example if I was doing a paper examining the impact of protective steel tariffs, and I had a father who held his job at a steel mill solely because of the protective tariffs then I would be clearly biased. But my research, if I followed my training, would be fairly unbiased. I would use facts, I would base my conclusions on tests and experiments, in short I would brutally adhere to the scientific method and intensively vet any sources I used. And I would be certain to look at the whole picture, and examine facts that both support and damage my reasoning and my conclusions.

I’m going to ask that if we continue this conversation further you first make sure you understand the definition of words that you comment on. Because instantly associating the word bias, or having bias, with being an ideologue shows that you don’t understand the nature and multifaceted aspects of the word bias.

Devil’s advocate is a position that can be assumed on any topic. I’ll do it here briefly. To set it up, I’m an Islamic Fundamentalist “terrorist” and here is what I think:

“It is unfortunate that I must strike fear into the Western world by killing and destroying. It is unfortunate indeed. However, Western society is decadent, and the only way that I can save Western society from itself and save my own society is to destroy the foundations of Western society. I must, through the use of fear and mayhem, tear down the status quo and force Western society to reexamine itself, so that ultimately it comes to realize the righteousness of MY path, and in doing so become favored by God and blessed in the afterlife.”

There, that fictional person obviously sees positive connotations to the word.

I would certainly be opposed to the suppression of a major news story within a media organization that was dedicated to reporting on things like foreign affairs. I wouldn’t care if VH1 decided not to show this story because it’s obviously outside their viewer base and is patently inappropriate there for most general purposes.

Here is the thing though, in my saying that a conservative outlet will pick stories that appeal to conservative interests that does not mean I’m saying they should suppress any stories that hurt the “Republican cause.” You say Fox News is lying or biased because they (hypothetically) will report more on the human right’s abuses of Saddam Hussein as opposed to CNN which reported more on the lack of UN approval.

The fact is to over-report on either of those things, is a clear cut form of bias. To only or heavily report on Hans Blix and his lack of support would be taking a stance on the whole thing as a news organization, it would be trying to pound into viewers heads that you should be against the war and THIS is why.

A perfect news organization would try to show all the views, the inhumane aspects of Saddam’s regime, the possible threats of Saddam’s regime, and the rebuttals to those (which would include lack of WMDs.) Now I think Fox News and CNN both reported on the lack of UN approval and both reported on Saddam’s human right’s abuses. Where the bias seeps in is which one gets the most coverage.

And thinking that one deserves more coverage than another is itself an internal bias.

My opinion is on issues like this it is very difficult to completely eliminate the bias. You are always going to be showing one thing more than the other, or some aspects of a story to the detriment of other aspects (this as a function of limited airtime.)

In some cases, yes. To move the term conservative more to the term “Republican” (which I must do for this argument because, although I am a die hard conservative I only support the Republican party when it follows my ideals and I feel it best represents me, to put things in tangible form we must actually go to the party names) the Watergate affair hurt the Republican party. If the press had never rooted out Nixon’s actions the Republican party would have stood a much better chance of winning the election in 1976.

Just as the Democratic party would certainly have had it’s interests better served if the media didn’t report on things like Robert Byrd’s KKK connections or Bill Clinton’s sexual indiscretions.

As far as the “political ideology” of conservatism, it isn’t much affected by individual news stories that much.

But to get back to your statement, you make the assumption that just because Fox News may decide to report more on human right’s abuses that they are ignoring the lack of UN approval. Fox News certainly reported on Hans Blix, and I never even said hypothetically that they didn’t or shouldn’t. But to ONLY show condemnations for the war (which is about all you will get from Hans Blix) is equivalent to condemning the war yourself (as a media outlet.)

Why wouldn’t it be good to watch? I’ve never heard Air America, but I listen a lot to my local community radio station, WMNF 88.5 FM (“Not a member of the Big Brother Broadcasting Network!”), which carries Pacifica shows and its own left-progressive news shows and talk shows.* This is good radio, very good radio. Most of these shows are, in my judgment, very entertaining, interesting, informative, provocative, sometimes infuriating – and generally accurate. I’ve never known any of them to get caught out in a really serious error of fact, nor a serious ethical lapse of any kind. I’m sure something like these shows could be done on TV and done well.

No personal ad hominem intended. I don’t know you, and I’m not that familiar with your posts here. I agree there is a difference between bias and blind ideology.

But you began your post with this blanket statement:

This implied (to me) that you thought that only leftists would fall prey to blind ideology. IOW, your own bias was showing. Even so, as your latest post suggests, you do know better. My point was that it is possible to overcome personal bias (as opposed to blind ideology), and your later post proves that. So shouldn’t this be prerequisite for a professional journo?

I just think we can do better. And expect a higher standard for journos.

Wellll… That might work, but only if you can convince me that Islamic Fundamentalists are a target demographic audience for Fox. Can you really make a case for that?

I don’t recall that at all, but I’m not much of a Fox watcher. Do you have a cite? (That they bought airtime on Fox, and were treated critically by Fox)

The substance of the irregularities would be a big hijack here (IOW, I disagree, and could make a substantial case for it), but more on point is that lack of substance doesn’t always preclude media coverage (I could make a case for that too, should you disagree).

How does your last sentence follow from the rest of the post? You have said very little about “society as we know it,” outside the media industry. You have merely identified the absence of a “liberal propaganda powerhouse” from the present media field – which makes that a wide-open, unfilled niche, just like right-wing propaganda journalism was an unfilled niche (at least in the cable TV news field) before Fox News came along.

Well the original post read “a Leftist” (the capitalization being somewhat grammatically inappropriate) and reflects the fact I was referring to the OP, and is why I didn’t type “leftists.” Although I have no idea as to the OP’s politics, I was mainly drawing a conclusion from what I read in the OP itself, which isn’t the best way to do things but is indeed what I did.

Whole thing is somewhat tangenital. It basically stems from this.

People try to say Fox News is biased because they say the insurgents in Iraq are 'terrorists" and will phrase things like “Terrorists attacked a U.S. cafeteria today…” While then others will claim X news agency is biased because they will use the word freedom fighter.

Insurgent is less of a loaded word but to some it implies a certain recognition of legitimacy to the things the “insurgents” are doing.

So my initial post in this regard was just sort of throwing in the offhand comment that just because Fox News calls X group terrorist doesn’t mean they are biased (they are biased, but not so much because of that, word usage is fairly trivial imo and is only a moderate reflection of bias that is practically unimportant imo) because ANY word you use to describe these “fighters” in Iraq will have certain connotations to certain people.

were you paying ANY attention at the 2004 election when 49 percent of the populace voted for Kerry? Americans are split right down the middle even with conservative control of the media. If the liberals got an equal footing, those numbers might change, in ways you don’t even want to THINK about. So I’m not surprised you’re coming up with anything you can find to throw water on this idea.

Once again, many of those 49% were not voting for Kerry so much as they were voting for “anybody but Bush.” We’re still in a 3-way split between Liberals, Conservatives and independents, at roughly 33% each. Not exactly “evenly divided” among the 2 modes of thought.

Sorry, but this just sounds like “a whole lot of side-stepping going on”

It’s called projection. See: Ann Coulter, for an example.

Well, I think your numbers are off, but for the sake of argument…

You’re talking a 33% core demographic market, plus a 33% target demo.

If I were a marketing exec, I’d be salivating. What’s your point?

My point is the 49% is not as strong as you think. We’re NOT split down the middle. In fact, there’s a rather large variety of independent thought out there. Kerry managed to gain less than half of them for his vote, but you can’t count that as wholsale endorsement of Liberalism.

Oh, I most certainly was…the real question is, were YOU?? Because I distinctly remember a rather large protest vote against GW…not FOR Kerry mind you but against Bush. Many folks I know personally voted for Kerry not because they agreed with Kerry, or that they felt that Kerry would make a good president…but because they couldn’t stand Bush and didn’t want another 4 years of him in office. I voted Badnarik myself because I couldn’t stomach either, but lots of independant types voted Kerry even though they most certainly aren’t liberals. But if you want to interpret the data to be that the 49% who voted for Kerry are liberals thats your lookout. Personally I don’t need to throw any water on the idea that liberals and their message are poised to take over…IMO thats fantasy in America.

Sorry, but you can continue to think that the liberal message is poised to take over America any day, and its simply the big ‘conservative control of the media’ keeping them down…I’m not buying it. Hey, opinions differ, no? I think fundamentally Americans (at least the majority of them) aren’t either liberal or concervative, but middle of the roaders…leaning to the left on a few issues and to the right on a few. VOTING left or right more based on the man than on the politics. But if you want to think that Americans are really liberal at heart and that its just those nasty conservatives who control the media keeping them from doing what they REALLY want…well, knock yourself out Evil. Its still a free country.

-XT

I still think your numbers are off, but I wasn’t referring to wholesale endorsement.

Do you know the difference between core demographic and target demographic? Seems you don’t, based on your reply.

Right. The question in this thread is not whether liberals or leftists could take over the country politically, but whether a left-wing cable news network could succeed in attracting a significant audience. And if roughly one-third of the people follow that way of thinking, why wouldn’t it?

That’s the point, XT.

As a businessman, wouldn’t you consider that group a viable target market? It’s not about Kerry, per se.

I already posted my reservations about the ethics of a proposed “liberal” media network. But as a viable marketing proposition, I don’t understand your ridicule.

I agree that there’s a lot of independents, and that a liberal news network would help get our message out to them a lot more effectively than all the … almost nothing … we have now.

If I’m not following you correctly, please let me know. If you are saying that the center or those who self associate themselves as independants are soft (i.e. they can pretty much swing either towards either party in an election) then you are getting no arguements from me. However, I disagree with the assertion (not made by you btw) that because 49% of the people voted for Kerry that means that 49% of the electorate are liberal…or even that a large percentage of that 49% are necessarily liberal. If someone was making the equally foolish assertion that because 51% voted for Bush that meant that 51% were conservative I’d be disagreeing with them as well.

If this isn’t what you are saying or I’m not following you I appologize…I’m still a bit hung over and admittedly I’m not as sharp as I could be atm.

I’m not ridiculing anyone per se…I just don’t think that liberal ideas or liberalism is widely accepted in the US today. Let me caviot that right off…I think SOME liberal ideas are accepted by a majority of Americans (hell, I agree with some of them myself)…just not the over all program that has been being pushed for the past several decades by the Democrats. I think this is pretty painfully obvious by simply looking back over the past few decades of national elections in Democrats vs Republicans. You can draw your own conclusions of course…I’ve drawn mine.

As to a liberal media equivelent to Fox, I just don’t see it in the cards because I don’t think it would generate a large enough market on its own…and would need some kind of outside support to keep it going (unlike Fox which is completely self sustaining and has captured a rather large segment of the market share from the older outlets that pre-dated it). Now, I’m taking about a NATIONAL service, not a local service. I have no doubts that locally, there are many places in the country where a liberally oriented news service/talk show, be it radio or broadcast, could and would (and does) thrive. But for a national market I don’t think such a service could possibly compete with Fox.

I appologize if you thought I was ridiculing anyone…that wasn’t my intention. Poke fun at? Sure…but not ridicule.

-XT

So who is a “liberal” and what does that term even mean anymore? That was part of my my point.

Seems like you are now not disagreeing that a viable market exists for a “liberal agenda” media. The “soft” constituency is up for grabs, no?

Personally, I’m not completely happy about it, for reasons already expressed, but I wouldn’t say the market isn’t there for a “liberal agenda” media. That is what you seemed to be saying in your initial post.

That would assume a perfectly balanced sharing of power, which no environment has. Some in the orginization are more equal than others. I think the more likely scenerio is a hierarchical structure, with power more clustered toward the top. It is not a simple arithmic calculation. Would you, the owner of the paper or news outlet, have a specific agenda. How do you think a line item veto impresses congress? The same thing applies to editors and journalists. Eventually, the journalists will begin to self edit and conform to their environment–or leave or get fired.

How can a business be run outside the control of its employer? Is that possible? Are the media owners more lax because it is media? That scenerio would be a little to rosey for my sensibilities. But, it is an alternative explanation, though weak.

Now you can certainly argue that the editors and owners are in line with liberal policies. But then there is another problem. The conservative ideology supports the interest of business and its needs almost categorically. Therefore a businessman, and stats will support this, will be heavily conservative in viewpoint and sentiment.

These are some very challenging issues for conservatives to answer and respond to in supporting an idea of liberal media which is counterintuitive to the environment in which journalists operate (not to mention the journalistic standards which, though not perfect, do factor in. I think most are not rogue ideologues and that most take seriously their responsibility as the foundation of American Democracy).

And most of the media today is owned by 6 very large companies. What do you think their ideological positions are? You can bet they believe in monopolies of power, deregulation of everything that supports them (communications, industry, trade, environment). Free reign with governmental support is the business model. How do you explain a liberal press in this environment?