Bugg:
You got there before me.
Isn’t it as much (or more) about politics than religion? I think the whole religion angle is a cover:
They hate us because we’re protestants!
No, they hate you because you represent colonialism.
Is that a fair characterization?
gabbyhayes said “The difference between catholics and protestants is that catholics believe in the primacy and inerrancy of th epope.(sic) All communication from human to God must perculate through layers of bureaucracy until it reaches the pope, who passes it on to God. Then God speaks to the pope and the pope makes his unerring statement, such as that the earth is the center of the universe or that a penis is an absolute necessity if you are going to burn incense and lead prayers.”
Yikes, I don’t even know where to begin. This is patently untrue. I wouldn’t start with this post for a fair perspective on the differences between these groups.
Here’s an on-going debate about differences between Protestantism and Catholicism, which contains links to other threads regarding the “Christianness” of various denominations: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=85182 At last look, it had remained pretty level-headed.
As Captain Amazing pointed out, the Orange Irish or Protestants, are overwhelmingly Presbyterian. They are, for the most part, descended from Scottish and English settlers brought in starting under James I ( so starting after 1603 ). There had been numerous other English plantations ( plantations here used in the sense of a planted community ) dating back to Plantagenet times, but none of the previous settlements in Ulster had held up, except at the very fringes in the East. Indeed the reason for the 17th century plantations ( which also were aimed at parts of Munster, Leinster, and the Connacht ) was to break up native polities that presented a threat of rebellion. These had been happening throughout the Elizabethan period and the most serious of them had been centered in Ulster - especially the rebellion of Hugh O’Neil and Hugh Roe O’Donnell, which had only been defeated ( and then just barely ) at Kinsale in 1601. Ulster was earlier referred to as ‘The Great Irishry’ because of dominance of native magnates and the lack of Crown control in that region.
So settlement was heavy in the period of 1603-1641 - it’s estimated that no less than 100,000 settlers emigrated from Britain to Ireland. It’s from this period that the core of the Ulster Protestant settlement dates. There was an uprising ( again originally centered in Ulster ) from 1641-1649, ended by Cromwell. Then repression, followed by some accomodations, some further settlement, then another rebellion in 1690-1691. The last featured the famous Battle of the Boyne, which the Ulster Protestants celebrate to this day during the ‘Marching Season’ ( actually Aughrim was the decisive victory -the battle on the Boyne was just the flashier early battle ). The situation in Northern Ireland was roughly codified after that ( though granted that’s a vast oversimplification ).
I can’t speak to the Irish problem, or to Catholicism, however, I can offer some correction of above comments on Protestants, being one myself. I talk about the principles of it, not the people who espouse it, some of whom are, to put it gently, not doing it right at all.
Protestants are largely the result of the reformation of Martin Luther (except that we have discarded his awful and rampant anti-Semitism), and the Church of England founded by Henry 8 of the Tudor Clan so he could get a divorce.
Luther saw a bunch of abuses in the Catholic church, most notably, the selling of indulgences, which were get out of hell and purgatory free cards that the church was selling to raise money. Luther also took issue with confession to a priest, the bible being in Latin so that most people could not read it for themselves, and the necessity to do good works: Luther followed Paul in the idea that God’s grace was free of the obligation to do anything else, good works would naturally follow salvation. Luther translated the Bible himself into German (if I am not mistaken). Shakespeare’s contempories translated it into English in the beautiful King James Version for us English speakers. Combined with movable typeface developed by Guttenberg, who interesting made his first project a bible, this revolutionized reading for the masses, and thus education. No longer was knowledge kept to nobles and priests and such, everybody could now directly read the word of God and many, many people began to learn to read. The Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution followed. But did Salvation? We will see in the afterlife.
Addenda to my earlier post: To put those emigration numbers in perspective, the population of Ireland as a whole is estimated at 1,300,000 in 1687. So 100,000 was a substantial number.
Chrome Spot:
Well, I wouldn’t call it a cover, really. The religious animosity is real ( but these days mostly generated as side-effect of the hostilities ). But I agree that it is much more political, a territorial and tribal struggle, than a religious one. It’s just that it tends to get couched in religious terms because of the very long ( and in Ulster, very rigid ) historical associations of Catholicism and Protestantism with the two different sides.
I hijacked my own post, damn. Anyway, Protestants of the Presbyterian variety make confession during their church service by the Minister and the congregation reading a general prayer of confession printed in their program out loud and en mass at the correct point in the service. We don’t specify what our sins are individually or to anyone else. We know. (Presbyterians are pretty dull anyway, and they are mostly things like sloth, covetousness and for the really wild ones, pride.)
The majority of Northern Irish children attend either Catholic of Protestant schools. Would it help if there were not these church schools but one type of school were all children attended. I would think the separation of children at the age of four into religious groups cannot help the hoped-for integration of the two populations.
Hateful language is completely inappropriate here, even if it is equal-opportunity hateful language. Don’t do that again.
bibliophage
moderator, GQ
[Edited by bibliophage on 09-06-2001 at 02:37 PM]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by manhattan *
**
Do you think No. 5 is even legal Manhattan? And no, not unless the word “sphincter” in Condition 3. is removed. Also, the phrase “until they swell” in 1. should be changed to read two and half minutes. The Hot Water bottle in 4. is negotiable if “tongue” becomes optional. Hit reply when you’re sure.
I doubt enough people would be willing to try this. I fear that too many on both sides would reject the idea. Some because they want their children in schools that will help instill their religion, and some because they want segregation for their children; they do not want them to associate with the children of the enemy.
Re Flodnick’s post about the differences between Protestant and Catholic, I’d say it’s a matter of perspective. To the Catholics and Protestants, these differences seem substantial, major, important, significant. But find a Budhist, Hindu, Shintoist, or Taoist who has neither visited the West nor studied it’s cultures; who knows little about Christianity beyond a basic definition along the lines of “followers of Christ, who is said to have died for their sins”. You can explain the differences between Protestant and Catholic to him, but I doubt you will convince him that they are of any real significance. From his perspective, there will seem to be little real difference.
I agree with you Hazel, I have just started taking an interest in this conflict and I find little difference between them myself,
As for G Nome and Manhattan "What are you two talking about??? I kind of agreed with Nome’s first post.
Where are the "forum descriptions 'cos I didn’t see anything wrong with Nome’s post.
They’re mostly Presbyterian, but not overwhelmingly so. See 1991 census data here.
Realizing that this might not be mainly about religion, what would happen if the Pope and the leaders of the Protestant religions would both say, “This has to stop. You will be excommunicated if this does not stop. This is completely antithetical to our beliefs.” And then do it. Excommunicate people.
I realize this wouldn’t stop anything, but it would take the church out of it, wouldn’t it?
The church isn’t in it (well except maybe Paisley’s church). The Catholic Church has consistently condemned the IRA’s activities. The paramilitaries take no notice of what their church thinks because they are not fighting for their church. How many times must this point be made?
Thanks for pointing that out, ruadh. I think that Gazoo was more looking to the churches to remove the cover that many Americans see in the conflict than implying that the churches were directly involved. It’s good to know that the Church has indeed explicitly removed the cover.
All that said, I don’t want to fight the conflict in this forum. I think the General Question has been answered adequately.
I’m not going to close the thread, but I’d ask that any future posts be purely factual, as opposed to speculative or political.
Thank you.
ruadh: Thanks for the correction 
.
Makes sense a fair number would be Anglican ( Church of Ireland ) given the substantial number of English settlers. Is there any correlation that you know of between hard-liners and a particular denomination? Not in the sense of the church promoting violence or anything, but I’d be curious, for example, whether the Church of Ireland community is more likely to be fervently pro-British. Or is the breakdown pretty independent of denominational factors and there is just a general “Protestant” culture?
It’s pretty independent of denominational factors. Paisley’s Free Presbyterian Church is particularly virulent, but I wouldn’t say there’s much difference between mainstream Presbyterians and the Church of Ireland.
As ruadh said correctly, “the church isn’t in it.” The Northern Ireland conflict is a political conflict. It is viewed by many Irish as an occupation of their land by hostile forces. It is exasperated by the fact that Northern Ireland had been “colonized” by people of British ancestry. They are in the majority and have no intent of leaving. Would “the British” be in a minority in Northern Ireland, the process would long have been solved by democratic means.
In any conflict, it is easier to rally support around emotional issues such as faith, race, class etc. It is a recruitment strategy, if you will, and a way to secure support. It also makes better copy.
If Catholics would fight Protestants as a rule, then you would have war all over Europe. In Germany, for instance, the largest religious affiliation is Protestant with 38 percent. Next is Roman Catholic, 34 percent, and Muslim, 1.7 percent. Those unaffiliated or practicing some other religion are 26.3 percent of the population. (This number is growing because Catholics and Protestants have to pay between 8 and 9% of their income tax as church tax. In other countries, this fact alone would incite – joint - riots. In Germany, a growing number simply opts out.) In any case, not since the 30 Years War (1618 to 1648 – and it didn’t have purely religious causes either) there was a conflict pitting Protestants against Catholics. In most of Europe, being Catholic or Protestant is a non-issue.
It would be a non-issue in Northern Ireland also, would the “Irish” population not be predominately Catholic and the “British” population not be predominately Protestant. Faith is a convenient and effective device to rally support. But it’s not the reason.
Do I understand this correctly? Germans with religious affiliations are taxed for it? By 8+% ?? This sounds truly bizarre! Any background on this?
Yes it is true. Separation of Church and state hasn’t caught on so much in Germany. The extra tax goes to upkeep of church properties and so on. You can declare yourself to be without a religion and save on the tax but this was never very common although as society becomes more secular, it is becoming more prevalent in Germany. Once you renounce your religion though, you can never be married in a church or buried on church grounds.e