> That word, along with its equivalents in other European
> languages, is nowadays considered a racial slur by the Roma
> and IGOs like the Council of Europe.
I think you were being a little unfair here with ataraxy22 and Urban Ranger. You used the term “Roma” which may be the preferred name for the people usually called the Gypsies, but it’s not a commonly used name. Seriously, go out someday and ask a random group of people who they think the Roma are. I suspect that less than 5% of them (maybe as little as 2%) will know that they are the group commonly called the Gypsies. The rest of the people will either say, “Do you mean the Romans or the Rumanians or what?” or just “Huh, what are you talking about?”. Given that fact, it’s a little unfair for you to use the term “Roma” in your OP and expect people to know what you’re talking about. I think you should have asked something like “What are the religious beliefs of the Roma (who are sometimes misleadingly referred to as the Gypsies)?”.
In fact, given that you clearly know a lot about the Roma already, I wonder why you didn’t just Google on the words “Roma” and “religion.” You would have come up with the same webpage that astro cited. As your OP stood, it’s not surprising that some people would be confused about who the Roma are. It’s also not surprising that someone would try to explain the term by saying that they are the Gypsies. Unfortunately, that’s the only term that many people know for the Roma, so there’s no way to explain the term “Roma” for most people without using the word “Gypsies.”
Been a while since I read that book, does she say this is a Romani tradition or a story created by non-Roma?
clairobscur: Romanichals (or Romanichels) are British Roma. I can imagine French ‘Gypsies’, they being Manush or Sinti, would be offended if called that.
Wendell Wagner: That’s why, on these boards, I tend to use Roma (Gypsy). It gets the correct name out in the open, but avoids any confusion.
I don’t know what the origin of this word, but it definitely the one which was used the most in a derogatory way in the past. “Manouches” would come second (irrelevant on whether the people concerned were actually Manush or not), and someone using “Gitan” would have had the feeling he was using a polite word. Sinti wasn’t (and still isn’t) used at all. Most people who would want to be politically correct would use “Roms” nowadays. And the whole thing has very few to do with what words the people who are refered to would want to be used.
In 1995 I met an roma-Italian gentleman travelling in the US. He referred to himself as a gypsy. Perhaps this was before “roma” was a popular PC term. Or perhaps Italian roma can’t say “roma” without getting the ethnicity confused with the city in the mind of the listener.
Do you normally do this in personal conversations too? Do you frequently start a conversation in which you talk about the Roma without explaining the term? And then, when someone in the group that you’re talking with says, “Huh, I don’t know who the Roma are,” and a second person says, “That’s the correct name for the people who are sometimes mislabeled as the Gypsies,” do you then start screaming, “Racist! Racist!” at the second person?
I haven’t called anyone racist around here. I opened the thread with the correct name for that ethnicity. After someone else used a perjorative term, I posted a single post to mention that it is best to not use that word because the Roma and several IGOs consider it a racial slur. Having posted that, I withdrew from the issue. If others want to use that term, that’s not something I’m going to argue about because I’ve already mentioned it’s not the best name. However, I personally didn’t use the word in question in the OP simply because it is not a good word to use.
The page on Roma belief at www.religioustolerance.org, which I found by Googling after I posted, indicates that most of Roma traditional belief comes from a sect of Hinduism that featured Kali prominently.
I agree with Wendell on this issue. If ataraxy22 had said “The Roma… you know, those damned Gypsies.” I could understand your sentiments. The way you said it, while not calling him a racist, was quite condescending - which is what I believe Wendell took exception to.
hmm. The Gypsies I know in the U.S. refer to themselves at Gypsies.
They sell flowers on the street and pick pockets. They don’t seem to mind at all that they are a living stereotype, and not a very positive one at that. The men don’t work once they reach manhood, but show up in their Cadillacs to pick up the women and children who have been working all night.
This is the only group of Gypsies I know - 5 of them total. I certainly wouldn’t assume all gypsies live like them. But these are these only Gypsies I’ve every spoken to, other than the ones who have approached me asking to repair the dents in my car. I reply “Gendari, nosh!” (sp?) which is Romany for “Cheese it, the cops!”
They just laugh at this white boy who knows a little Romany.
I know plenty of other lowlifes of every other ethnic background.
Your race and ethinicity do not determine your destiny. If Trent Lott were the only white guy I knew, I wouldn’t assume all white people were racists.
I know that some bands of Roma rationalized their theft with religious parables. In one version, an ancient Romani stole the nails that were to be used on Christ’s feet and wrists; he was caught, but Christ blessed him for his effort by giving him and his descendants special dispensation to steal. Other groups had the same parable, only it was the myrrh and vinegar that a Gypsy stole to give Christ for the pain.
I wonder if non Christian Romany incorporated similar parables into the religions they practiced.
As memory serves, the writer Jerzy Kozinsky (THE PAINTED BIRD, BEING THERE) was of mixed Romany and Jewish ancestry, and of course the incredible guitarist Django Rheinhardt (sp?) was Romany. Are there any other famous Romany?
I knew the name “Gypsy” is from the mistaken belief that the Romany were Egyptian in origin, rather like “Indian” for Native Americans (though personally I find the term “Native American” much more offensive). I didn’t realize it was a pejorative now, though; I just thought it was considered outdated, rather like “Jewess” or “Mohammedan”.
I would suspect it would be difficult to get a straight answer from a Rom, never mind one about their religious beliefs. There is a strong tradition of insularity and telling us gorgios whatever will make us go away or throw money.
I have one friend, in New Hampshire, who claims British Romanichal family. She is a Wiccan, but keeps many of the marhaime(cleanliness) rules. She does have two washcloths, two bars of soap, and two towels, to avoid polluting her upper body with the lower.
I have no cite, (sorry) but here is an explanation for the “Gypsy” name and it’s Egyptian origins. The Romani showed up in Rome in a large group, claiming to be Egyptian Coptic Christians persecuted by the Turks. The Catholics were so horrified by the tales of depredations that they welcomed the refugees with open arms, lavishing them with gifts, making them guests and helping many with capitol to “start businesses”. Probably spurious, but a wonderful con if it is true.
In Greece and Turkey, they are called "Cigani’ Pronounced almost like “chigani” but not quite. In Egypt, there were families called “Ghawazee”, I think means foreigner, but now denotes a prostitute, who probably had Rom origins. In Sudan, they are called “Halebi” referring to the city in Syria they claimed as their origins when they emigrated.
They have the same reputation as anywhere else, and are usually shunned socially for it, but they are renowned for their clever metalwork, often turning scrap metal into useful household items. In Sudan, "Halebi"is used as a lighthearted slur against anyone particularly light-skinned, questioning their ancestry and character.
They are definitely muslim there, but most question their sincerity and morals.
Sampiro: Regarding the religious parables. It’s very debatable whether the Roma originated those stories or others did. What is known, is that non-Roma use them more than we do and they are generally held to be derogatory. Nowdays, you’ll see racists and bigots use them to claim that we are raised to be thieves.
Famous Roma? Offhand, I can think of Charlie Chaplin, Yul Brynner, Bob Hoskins, Rita Hayworth and Michael Caine (IIRC). I also seem to to remember a story that Bill Clinton may have Romani ancestors. martin_ibn_martin said:
Not exactly the best idea to mix with those who’ve been trying to kill your people for almost a thousand years, is it?
Regarding cleanliness laws: It’s quite common to use three towels. One for the upper body, one for the lower body and one for the ‘bits’. I’ve described our cleanliness laws as a mixture of Kosher and OCD.
I would assume that ‘Gypsies’ in the Sudan would be Domari. They live throughout North Africa and, as I understand it, most names they are called would be anything but lighthearted slurs.
Is there any way to tell a Romany name? For example, are there any surnames or given names that are particularly common among or unique to Roma?
Django is certainly not a usual name, but Reinhardt is of course German influenced. Did the Roma often intermarry with locals in an area?
If they sold t-shirts, I woulda got one.