# What are the signs of the apocalypse and coming rapture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256 "2004-11-05T20:43:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Alias](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Alias](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alias)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/1 "2004-11-05T20:43:02Z")
Because of where this thread MIGHT go, I’m posting in GD. Recently, one of our business’s clients informed a co-worker and myself that we might come to work one day, and everyone would be gone. She went on to say that the signs are all there, armageddon is upon us etc etc etc. Aside from her assumption on my religeous beliefs, what was she getting at? I’ve looked at a few websites, and haven’t found much of anything specific, just a lot of interpretation that eventually contradicts other interpretations. Also, I don’t feel like slogging through the entire new testament. Can someone please tell me what the signs are and how different Christian sects interpret them. So far, I’ve heard that the falling of the Berlin Wall, the splitting of the Soviet Union, the rise of the homosexuals (rise???), and the war in Iraq are all tell-tale signs, but can someone more knowledgeable shed some light on this? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/2 "2004-11-05T21:33:38Z")
There’s a school of thought in Christian apocalypic teaching, called premillenialism, that believes that, one day, all Christians will be miraculously taken up to heaven (this is called the “rapture”), and then, after that, the world will go through all sorts of tragedies, and become ruled by someone influenced by Satan, called the “Antichrist”. The Antichrist will try to be worshiped as a god and try to wipe out all traces of Christianity. He’ll start to succeed at first, but before he manages to pull it off, Jesus will come back to earth, defeat him in battle, and punish him and his followers, while saving the small Christian remnant that remained faithful. You find this belief among some evangelical and fundamentalist Christian groups, but it’s hardly universal in Christianity. The people who believe it rely mostly on interpretations of parts of the Books of Daniel and Revelation. It first became popular at the end of the 19th century, thanks to an American minister named Cyrus Scofield, who preached a version of this belief (and prepared a new bible edition supporting it) called dispensational premillenialism. If you’re looking for individual “signs”, they vary depending on group and individual. The field is full of individuals giving their interpretations, and you’re not going to find general agreement. You might, though, want to check out Hal Lindsey, especially his book, “The Late, Great Planet Earth”, as well as the recent series of “Left Behind” novels, which deal with the topic (both written by people who believe in premillenial dispensationalism.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/3 "2004-11-05T22:19:57Z")
The Red Sox won the World Series. What more do you want? Mine eyes have seen the coming of the Dark Lord Antichrist He is humorous and handsome and he isn’t very nice We’ll get along just fine if you don’t make him tell you twice Apocalypse today! Gory, gory Armageddon Gory, gory Armageddon Gory, gory Armageddon Apocalypse today! It’s really most annoying, with the rains of flaming pitch And the things that bite and things that burn and things that sting and itch But, oh, that Whore of Babylon’s a lusty, royal bitch! Apocalypse today! (chorus) It’s really most confusing, with the Horsemen in the skies And the seven seals, and seven plagues, and lambs with seven eyes But we get no fun from Jesus, so bring on the Prince of Lies! Apocalypse today! (chorus) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/4 "2004-11-05T23:03:58Z")
Did you make that up? That rocks. re the OP - the verses being used to look for obvious signs of the end of the world read about like the prophesies of Nostradamus. You can interpret nearly any events as signs if you’re in the mood. It’s like finding shapes in clouds. About every ten years someone writes a book proving that the end is about ten years away. I’ve got a book written in 1932 that puts a lot of store in the fall of the Turkish Empire. His deadline expired before I was born. The Jehovah’s Witnesses used to identify WWI as the beginning of the last hundred years of earth. I think they’re hedging their bets a little now that that deadline is coming up. I’m not sure what I’d do with a co-worker who was counting down to the rapture, other than asking if I could have her car when she goes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/5 "2004-11-05T23:10:59Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Did you make that up? That rocks. Yep! Thanks! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Roches](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc8723/32.png) [@Roches](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roches)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/6 "2004-11-05T23:45:34Z")
There’s something called the ‘rapture index’ that measures various ‘indicators’ of how close the end of the world is. (I won’t provide a link but you can google it.) While much of Christian millenialism is based on the Revelation of St. John, there is also much about it that is extrabiblical. There are also bits from the gospels that are used in millenial beliefs, such as Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (‘wars and rumors of wars’). Many of these are taken out of context. IIRC the idea of a ‘rapture’ may be extrabiblical, and many millenialists certainly believe things which have no basis in the Bible, yet claim to believe that the Bible is literally true. Their beliefs also hinge very strongly on the Revelation of St. John, which is a book that is not really consistent with the rest of the Bible, does not altogether fit into the rest of the message of the New Testament, and is known for its very bad grammar (in Greek). Revelation was quite nearly not made canonical, but the early Christians may have seen the value of an end-of-the-world message and decided to include it. An alternative view of the end of the world is given in the [Apocalypse of Peter](http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsepeter-mrjames.html), which once enjoyed popularity approaching that of the Apocalypse of John, and which probably had a good chance of becoming canonical. The Apocalypse of Peter has far more vivid descriptions of Hell than any of the NT, including Revelation. The JWs decided they were kind-of-right about their 1914 prediction, because something major did happen, even if it wasn’t the end of the world. They decided that the Second Coming had appeared invisibly, and that the world would actually end ‘before the generation of 1914 passes away’. This has now been corrected to something like ‘very soon’. There were other predictions before and after 1914, such as in 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, and 1994. The 1925 prediction was supported by advice to sell homes and insurance, and the JWs built a home for some of the prophets that would be returning. There is a list of EOTW predictions [here](http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm), and there are several other lists. That one goes to 1990, but if you go back up there are other lists. There is also a list in James Randi’s _Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural_, which was used as the basis for a list in Penn & Teller’s _Bulls\*\*t_. Some predictions, notably those made by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists, were not included on Penn & Teller’s list. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/7 "2004-11-06T00:45:18Z")
A good book for laymen on this subject is Barbara Rossing’s _The Rapure Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation,_ which is written for a general audience and pretty much exposes the shoddy theology behind the millenialism that far too many people (especially in the United States) believe today. Interestingly, the idea appears to have been a British invention, not an American one. It seems to have originated with a British clergyman named John Darby. Darby’s theories about about the end times were developed from the visions of a fifteen year old girl named Margaret MacDonaold, who had her visions during or shortly after a religous healing service in 1830. Darby made a number of mission trips to the United States between 1859 and 1877 and won a considerable number of converts to his views here. A major conduit in the United States for Darby’s ideas was _The Scofield Reference Bible_ published by a shady character named Cyrus Scofield. Scofield embezzled money, did time for forgery even after his supposed conversion to Christianity, and abandoned his wife and children. Scofield’s _Reference Bible_ was an edition of the King James Bible with many annotations and footnotes which supposedly explained how many passages referred to or confirmed Darby’s ideas. The book was a huge best-seller, and milllions of Americans got their ideas about Christianity from it. The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago was also instrumental in spreading these ideas through their conferences, radio broadcasts and literature. Rossing is a Lutheran theologian. If you want a good, quick overview of the subject from a Christian, non-fundamentalist perspective, the book is recommended. The Jack Chick tract _The Great Escape_ gives a pretty good idea of the sort of things many fundamentalists consider to be signs of the Apocalypse and the Second Coming. You can view it online here: [http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0050/0050\_01.asp](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0050/0050_01.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/8 "2004-11-06T00:50:12Z")
::Loopy moons Pat Roberson:: ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/9 "2004-11-06T02:40:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Red Sox won the World Series. What more do you want? The Cubs have to win the World Series too, before the end time can come. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/10 "2004-11-06T05:10:01Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > A good book for laymen on this subject is Barbara Rossing’s _The Rapure Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation,_ which is written for a general audience and pretty much exposes the shoddy theology behind the millenialism that far too many people (especially in the United States) believe today. She spoke at my church on Palm Sunday. Me: So what you are saying is that the Rapture has no more Biblical basis than snakehandling? Her: Well, a little more, but not much. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/11 "2004-11-06T08:04:16Z")
> [@RandomLetters](#): > > The Cubs have to win the World Series too, before the end time can come. Bush was returned to office. That **is** the apocalypse! (Love your song, BrainGlutton!) ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/12 "2004-11-06T11:56:11Z")
I rarely come into GD, but I caught BrainGlutton’s song and I have to say, it’s fantastic. One of the best song parodies I’ve seen on the SDMB! ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/13 "2004-11-06T12:15:07Z")
There is nothing similar in Brazil or anywhere else I’ve been… this seems to be restricted to the United States of Bible apparently… I can barely wait for them to “rapture” away… and leave us to create a better world. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/14 "2004-11-06T12:46:21Z")
There aren’t any. Check out [Matthew 24](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+24&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on), especially verse 36 in which Jesus, Himself says, "“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” There’s some good, apocalyptic stuff in that chapter, but somehow, those interested in saying we’re in the End Times, manage to overlook that pesky 36th verse. You can get a much less polite view of my views on the rapture [here in the BBQ Pit.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283432) Let’s just say I’m not a fan of it. As a former Y2K expert, I know that people have been expecting the End Times for about 2,970 years. There’s a line in one of the Gospels about how this generation shall not perish away before Christ returns. There was also a pretty massive panic around A.D. 1000. Me, I’m a devout Christian, but I don’t know when Christ will come again, and, frankly, I don’t think I’m supposed to be worried about it. I mean, if I change my behaviour because I think Christ is due back next year rather than next millenium, doesn’t that make me a bit of a hypocrite? It kind of strikes me as “Look busy! The Boss is coming!” If the only time I act busy or righteous is when I’m expecting the boss or God to turn up any moment, that doesn’t say much for me as an employee or a person. In real life, if it were a client, I’d write the woman off as a bit of a kook, and try to find neutral subjects to talk to her about. That or you could, if you felt you could get away with it, suggest that, since the End Times are so imminent, could you please have payment in advance! 😉 I don’t recommend this, though. I’ve a feeling it would flop rather spectacularly badly! CJ ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/15 "2004-11-06T12:58:27Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > One of the best song parodies I’ve seen on the SDMB! Seconded and thirded. Brilliant. I may even learn it to sing with my guitar at parties (if that’s OK). ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/16 "2004-11-06T15:04:52Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > There is nothing similar in Brazil or anywhere else I’ve been… this seems to be restricted to the United States of Bible apparently… > > I can barely wait for them to “rapture” away… and leave us to create a better world. You’ll be sorry to hear that my mom’s church is planning on sending missionaries to Brazil. ☹ I love my mom, but sometimes she really can drive me crazy when she starts talking about religion. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/17 "2004-11-06T15:08:19Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You’ll be sorry to hear that my mom’s church is planning on sending missionaries to Brazil. ☹ I love my mom, but sometimes she really can drive me crazy when she starts talking about religion. Your scaring me ! I hope they rapture before they get here ! Tell her african religions are still strong here… with spiritual possession and offerings. If that doesn’t scare her… send those missionaries names to me and I’ll get my friends in the Federal Police to block their entry into the country !! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/18 "2004-11-06T15:42:33Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Seconded and thirded. Brilliant. I may even learn it to sing with my guitar at parties (if that’s OK). Go ahead! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/19 "2004-11-06T16:11:20Z")
> [@](#): > > , while saving the small Christian remnant that remained faithful. and Jewish. The rapture wasn’t meant to be studied or realized til the time of the End. I have a book here called revelation Unveiled where it states that a Reverend Morgan Edwards wrote Millennium, Last days Novelties in 1788. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256/20 "2004-11-06T16:25:15Z")
The reason you find such contradictory information about “signs” of the apocalypse and how the endtimes will unfold is because none of it is in the Bible. There is no “Rapture” in the Bible, no super-villain “antichrist,” none of the Left Behind, milleniallist, Late Great Planet Earth stuff is actually in the Bible. Sure, these people _quote_ from the Bible, but they do it in a very spastic, cherry-picked, highly selective, decontextualized and _a priori_ manner. The book of Revelation was written during the Roman persecution of Christians and Jews at the end of the first century. All of the imagery symbolizes events, places and figures of that time. It was meant to offer comfort and encouragement to the faithful and let them know that God would have the last word. A staright reading of the New Testament, _in context_, does not reveal any signs or descriptions of the endtimes and Jesus himself said that no one would see it coming. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-the-signs-of-the-apocalypse-and-coming-rapture/273256.md?page=2)