# What are these weird symbols in this church? Picture included. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 4, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594 "2015-06-04T01:11:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/41 "2015-06-05T13:03:52Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > The small crosses actually look like plus signs, all sides are equal. That’s known as a “Greek cross.” ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/42 "2015-06-05T13:44:15Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Ital added > [Nitpick} > Altar I thought the altar was a table of sorts. The entire stage area is the altar? ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/43 "2015-06-05T17:25:15Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I thought the altar was a table of sorts. The entire stage area is the altar? Sometimes. Different denominations use different terminology. The space around the altar table can be called the altar, the chancel, the presbytery, or the sanctuary. And possibly some other terms that I’m forgetting. ---
**Author:** ![CraterLayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@CraterLayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CraterLayer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/44 "2015-06-05T19:09:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s known as a “Greek cross.” Lutherans use the Greek Orthodox Cross to embellish their Altars? What world do you live in? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/45 "2015-06-05T19:22:41Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Lutherans use the Greek Orthodox Cross to embellish their Altars? What world do you live in? Not a “Greek Orthodox Cross” – an equal-armed “Greek Cross”. There’s a difference. I suspect you had the Eastern Orthodox Cross in mind: [https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;\_ylt=AwrB8pnT9nFVeiQAvQyJzbkF;\_ylu=X3oDMTI0OGFpY2hxBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM3ZWZhOGZiYmNlODBlYjYxNzQxNzMyMzRhZTdiNmU5YwRncG9zAzE4NQRpdANiaW5n?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DTypes%2BCrosses%26fr%3Dyfp-t-252%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D185&w=460&h=582&imgurl=wpmedia.blogs.vancouversun.com%2F2010%2F02%2F1346.crosses.png&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.vancouversun.com%2F2010%2F02%2F19%2Feast-van-golgotha-cross-stirs-up-pride-and-history%2F&size=42.6KB&name=East+Van+%26%2339%3BGolgotha%26%2339%3B+\cross\<%2Fb\>+stirs+up+pride+and+history+|+Vancouver+Sun&p=Types+Crosses&oid=7efa8fbbce80eb6174173234ae7b6e9c&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-252&tt=East+Van+%26%2339%3BGolgotha%26%2339%3B+\cross\<%2Fb\>+stirs+up+pride+and+history+|+Vancouver+Sun&b=181&ni=240&no=185&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12sp1sqt9&sigb=134segrus&sigi=11nlob7s5&sigt=12j1t8g7n&sign=12j1t8g7n&.crumb=iFnxBO8CwGG&fr=yfp-t-252](https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8pnT9nFVeiQAvQyJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTI0OGFpY2hxBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM3ZWZhOGZiYmNlODBlYjYxNzQxNzMyMzRhZTdiNmU5YwRncG9zAzE4NQRpdANiaW5n?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DTypes%2BCrosses%26fr%3Dyfp-t-252%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D185&w=460&h=582&imgurl=wpmedia.blogs.vancouversun.com%2F2010%2F02%2F1346.crosses.png&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.vancouversun.com%2F2010%2F02%2F19%2Feast-van-golgotha-cross-stirs-up-pride-and-history%2F&size=42.6KB&name=East+Van+%26%2339%3BGolgotha%26%2339%3B+%3Cb%3Ecross%3C%2Fb%3E+stirs+up+pride+and+history+%7C+Vancouver+Sun&p=Types+Crosses&oid=7efa8fbbce80eb6174173234ae7b6e9c&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-252&tt=East+Van+%26%2339%3BGolgotha%26%2339%3B+%3Cb%3Ecross%3C%2Fb%3E+stirs+up+pride+and+history+%7C+Vancouver+Sun&b=181&ni=240&no=185&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12sp1sqt9&sigb=134segrus&sigi=11nlob7s5&sigt=12j1t8g7n&sign=12j1t8g7n&.crumb=iFnxBO8CwGG&fr=yfp-t-252) ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/46 "2015-06-05T19:46:23Z")
I haven’t heard back from the church FWIW. I’ve been keeping an eye on my spam folder, too. Perhaps their secretary won’t be in until the weekend. Or no one checks the email, which is how my Lutheran church works 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/47 "2015-06-06T02:03:47Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I haven’t heard back from the church FWIW. I’ve been keeping an eye on my spam folder, too. > > Perhaps their secretary won’t be in until the weekend. Or no one checks the email, which is how my Lutheran church works 🙂 It’d be a great conversation to have with the pastor after church on Sunday. You are going Sunday, right? Let us know what he says (or she says - oh wait, it’s Missouri Synod, never mind). You could also tell them to take out the apostrophe from Sunday’s on their website. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/48 "2015-06-06T06:57:28Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Do Lutherans do Stations of the Cross, but without the walking? > > Tripler > Just a thought. . . Yes but most do it from text and not symbols; there are exceptions though. And the number of them doesn’t correspond to the “Stations”. > [@bordelond](#): > > Our Savior’s Lutheran Church (Hibbing, MN) has [this on their website](http://www.oslchibbing.org/?page_id=43) explaining the symbolism of their wall décor. Scroll about halfway down the page. Interesting. Crucifixes are fairly rare in Lutheran churches. I’ll be curious to see if they are ELCA, something else, or just and independent congregation. But some other day. > [@CraterLayer](#): > > Lutherans use the Greek Orthodox Cross to embellish their Altars? What world do you live in? Actually some Slovak Zion Synod churches did; especially before Seminex and the founding of the ELCA. Old habits and customs die hard. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/49 "2015-06-08T12:04:28Z")
I plan to call them some time this week. It’s still driving me nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/50 "2015-06-08T12:07:49Z")
I am curious too. Please let us know. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/51 "2015-06-08T13:48:31Z")
> [@CraterLayer](#): > > Lutherans use the Greek Orthodox Cross to embellish their Altars? What world do you live in? The Greek cross, also known as the _crux imissa quadrata_, is an early symbol of Christianity and predates the Latin cross. I’m not saying that Lutherans use the Greek cross as a matter of course, but the name of the symbol is a Greek cross and it’s used outside Eastern Rite churches, too. For example, see the altar of [the Lutheran Church of Honolulu.](http://www.lchwelcome.org/worship/paraments/maundy-altar.html) Or [Faith Lutheran Church](http://www.faithlutheranchurch.org/history/quilt/pages/cross.htm). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/52 "2015-06-08T13:56:15Z")
Missed edit window: I’ve never seen it to represent anything but God, though, in the same way I would not expect to see twelve Latin crosses up there, either. Then again, maybe the artist was intending some sort of symbolism of those twelve being “with God” or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/53 "2015-06-08T14:53:08Z")
I got an answer from the church. It’s pretty mundane: > [@](#): > > Hello. Too funny that we would be asked this and when you find out, hopefully you will say…”of course, that makes sense”. > > The eleven crosses represent the disciples (John, Paul, Luke, etc) > The squiggle represents Judas. He was a disciple but as we know, he betrayed Jesus. > > Have a nice day. > Lisa ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/54 "2015-06-08T15:11:14Z")
I also received the answer. What a boring result. I guess there were not 12 crosses to include Matthias, but the squiggle does represent Judas. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/55 "2015-06-08T15:12:18Z")
Also, Paul wasn’t a disciple, but I think she just was in error using that as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/56 "2015-06-08T15:21:43Z")
Thanks, **ZipperJJ**. So the very first theory proposed in this thread turned out to be the correct one. Although I’m still not entirely sure why it would “make sense” that a squiggle, in particular, would represent Judas. Good catch, **Mahaloth**. It may be fair to call Paul a disciple in some sense of the word, but he certainly wasn’t one of the Twelve. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/57 "2015-06-08T15:25:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Hello. Too funny that we would be asked this Not a very well-developed sense of humor in that church, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/58 "2015-06-08T15:40:08Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Also, Paul wasn’t a disciple, but I think she just was in error using that as an example. Neither was Luke, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/59 "2015-06-08T15:53:02Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Although I’m still not entirely sure why it would “make sense” that a squiggle, in particular, would represent Judas. Perhaps a snake. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/60 "2015-06-08T16:37:46Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Not a very well-developed sense of humor in that church, I guess. Well…Lutherans. If Ole and Lena don’t feature they take a little longer to get it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594.md?page=4)