# What are these weird symbols in this church? Picture included. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 4, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594 "2015-06-04T01:11:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/61 "2015-06-08T22:33:16Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > Neither was Luke, for that matter. He wasn’t a disciple, but the Force was strong in him. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/62 "2015-06-09T00:08:45Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > He wasn’t a disciple, but the Force was strong in him. And he drove a donkey, not a land speeder. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/63 "2015-06-09T01:56:45Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Good catch, **Mahaloth**. It may be fair to call Paul a disciple in some sense of the word, but he certainly wasn’t one of the Twelve. He was an apostle, not a disciple. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/64 "2015-06-09T03:20:13Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Interesting. Crucifixes are fairly rare in Lutheran churches. I’ll be curious to see if they are ELCA, something else, or just and independent congregation. But some other day. “We are a congregation of the NE MN Synod of the ELCA” There is some suggestion that Luthern churches have been using the empty cross to fit in with Calvinist/Reformed tradition Churces. Perhaps the crucifix is making a come back in American Luthern architecture. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/65 "2015-06-09T03:32:42Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > There is some suggestion that Luthern churches have been using the empty cross to fit in with Calvinist/Reformed tradition Churces. Perhaps the crucifix is making a come back in American Luthern architecture. Not in my experience, in northern California. I’ve attended ELCA and LCMS churches, and all crosses are bare. Crucifixes with Jesus on them, I’ve seen in Catholic churches but not Lutheran churches. My experience, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/66 "2015-06-09T03:51:30Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > … > Although I’m still not entirely sure why it would “make sense” that a squiggle, in particular, would represent Judas… This is a fascinating question, and I’ll look into that. “Making sense” doesn’t always apply to the design and use of a grapheme; in the classical [semiotics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics) of Peirce and Saussure a symbol by definition relates to the semantic denotation where–disregarding temporal relations between sign makers and readers–the inscription can range from the iconic (pictogram, say) to the absolutely arbitrary symbolic (the letters of an alphabet; Christ as Alpha and Omega, The Artist Formerly Known as Prince as []) (No extended-ASCII code available). Graphic inscription is in itself quite a loaded issue. Just as in oral sacred and profane words naming/“describing” God, of course, all the way down to sub hero and antiheros of any deep cultural tradition (e.g. variations on “he whose name shall not be mentioned”). Many’s the Jew, like me, who drew the line and merely mouthed “Christ” while lustily singing all the other words of carols or Handel Messiah as kids in school; for the same reason many Orthodox Jews will write X-Mas on principle. (A different principle one than the explicit fundamental Gospel Judas-mark. Although perhaps a similar graphic/dogmatic complex can be dug up.) ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594/67 "2015-06-09T05:56:48Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > “We are a congregation of the NE MN Synod of the ELCA” > > There is some suggestion that Luthern churches have been using the empty cross to fit in with Calvinist/Reformed tradition Churces. Perhaps the crucifix is making a come back in American Luthern architecture. Possible. Usually we say that we worship the Risen Lord - hence the empty cross; but we are a rather diverse conglomeration of thought on theological matters. The old joke is that when two folks from the ELCA meet up they will have 4 diametrically opposed opinions and all 16 will be categorically wrong. 😉 > [@Mahaloth](#): > > I also received the answer. What a boring result. I guess there were not 12 crosses to include Matthias, but the squiggle does represent Judas. Thanks! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-these-weird-symbols-in-this-church-picture-included/721594.md?page=3)