# What are UFOs if they're NOT alien spacecraft? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108 "2024-02-26T17:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/521 "2026-08-29T21:03:42Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > There have been a fair number of incidents reported by reliable individuals over several decades that are pretty damn strange, and certainly nothing produced by then-current or current human technology. The word ‘certainly’ in that sentence is itself misleading. None of the evidence that has been presented so far is ‘certain’ proof of anything except the unreliable nature of evidence. Hastings repeats a variety of reports from nuclear missile sites, but his evidence is a long way from being reliable. Here is a long list of things Hastings gets wrong. > **[UFOs at Nuclear Weapons Sites (Salas, Malmstrom, Eagle Flight) - Skeptical...](https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ufos-at-nuclear-weapons-sites-salas-malmstrom-eagle-flight-skeptical-resources.3284/)** > > \[Thread Updated, October 20, 2021\] > > Robert Salas' claims about UFO deactivating Nuclear weapons are once again bouncing around the media. A lot of the older analysis of these claims is getting lost to Internet decay, so I've gathered here the key... ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/522 "2026-08-29T21:50:11Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > The problem with the nuclear weaponry, aviation, and the military in general, anything weird that might happen tends to be a career killer. “You didn’t see anything, right?” is pretty good advice for anyone that doesn’t want to lose their secret clearances and things like that. Similarly, individuals working in medicine and pharmaceutical research are constrained from revealing what they know about cheap, universally effective cancer cures, because they’d be ostracized and driven from their profession. 🤔 🤪 ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/523 "2026-08-29T21:56:55Z")
And the free-energy researchers. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/524 "2026-08-29T22:39:39Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > There have been a fair number of incidents reported by reliable individuals over several decades that are pretty damn strange, and certainly nothing produced by then-current or current human technology. The use of lasers by the military does explain a lot of the hard to explain cases IMHO. > **[The US Military Is Making Lasers That Create Voices out of Thin Air](https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2018/03/us-military-making-lasers-create-voices-out-thin-air/146824/)** > > Within three years, the Pentagon's non-lethal weapons lab hopes to have a direct energy weapon that can produce an effect like a haunted walkie-talkie or the biblical burning bush. > How far away can that point be? “Range is a function of the optics. The bigger the mirrors, the farther the range,” Law said. A five-inch mirror creates the effect about one kilometer away; an 8-inch mirror, about five kilometers, he said. “They’ve created plasmas at 20 or 30 kilometers,” he said. “This is the first non-lethal weapon that could go out tens of kilometers.” > > The [Kerr effect](https://www.rp-photonics.com/kerr_effect.html), a term that refers to minute changes in the refractive index as a result of electromagnetic field changes, makes it actually easier to create the effect at a distance. That was from 2018 BTW. The video they write about is no longer available, but a good primer can be seen from “Curious Droid”: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/8ncUhfOwo30/maxresdefault.jpg "Lasers, Plamsa, UFOs and Lightning. The Hidden Tech of Laser-Induced Plasma.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ncUhfOwo30&t=0.3) > From creating virtual flash bang grenades for crowd control, to guiding lightning or a high power electrical current to a target up to 100 or so meters away, to creating fake radar images and heat signatures from jet aircraft to trick radar systems and guided missiles that the plane or missiles, to talking plasma balls and possibly the source of recent UFOs sighting that can apparently travel at incredible speeds and perform maneuvers and stops that are unheard of by man made aircraft, this is the world of laser induced plasma. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/525 "2026-08-29T22:39:54Z")
I don’t see that as comparable, not even a little bit. Losing a clearance, a military career over any number of indiscretions (a long list) is very common and has been for a long time. UFOs were definitely not something to bring up if it can be helped. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/526 "2026-08-29T22:44:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The use of lasers by the military does explain a lot of the hard to explain cases Eh, not during World War II presumably. Allied fighters saw some strange things over Europe they termed “foo fighters”, and thought maybe they were some sort of experimental or secret weapons by the Axis. Luftwaffe pilots saw them too, and thought maybe they were new Allied weapons. I agree most incidents or sightings have conventional explanations. Not all of them though, and the government for its part has been secretive. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/527 "2026-08-29T22:48:59Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Eh, not during World War II presumably. Allied fighters saw some strange things over Europe they termed “foo fighters” [Ball lightning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter), and this explanation was old already. Laser use matches a few of the “hard to explain” new cases. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/528 "2026-08-29T22:53:19Z")
It’s likely that there would be much different responses by military higher-ups to: 1. factual, sober reporting of an unusual event that could (for instance) represent spying by a potentially hostile entity, and 2. insistence that an unexplained aerial phenomenon constitutes an alien intrusion that is being covered up for unjustified/nefarious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/529 "2026-08-29T22:55:32Z")
Nope, definitely not ball lightning. Nor “swamp gas”. They knew what they were looking at, they were familiar with ball lightning. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/530 "2026-08-29T22:58:50Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Allied fighters saw some strange things over Europe they termed “foo fighters”, and thought maybe they were some sort of experimental or secret weapons by the Axis. Luftwaffe pilots saw them too, and thought maybe they were new Allied weapons. I thought reporting weird things was a way to get fired from the military? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/531 "2026-08-29T23:03:45Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Nope, definitely not ball lightning. Nor “swamp gas”. They knew what they were looking at, they were familiar with ball lightning. That shows a bit of ignorance because back then the phenomenon was many times assigned to imagination or misunderstandings. AFAICR researchers then did not take those sightings seriously, not just for being an unlikely phenomenon, but because of the pedantic reason that it did not affect the planes nor the pilots. It was not pilots the ones that came with what was, more likely, what they did see. > **[Foo fighter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter)** > > The term foo fighters was used by Allied aircraft pilots during World War II to describe various unidentified flying objects (UFO) or mysterious aerial phenomena seen in the skies over both the European and Pacific theaters of operations. Though foo fighters initially described a type of UFO reported and named by the U.S. 415th Night Fighter Squadron, the term was also commonly used to mean any UFO sighting from that period. Formally reported from November 1944 onwards, foo fighters were presumed... > The postwar [Robertson Panel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson_Panel "Robertson Panel") cited foo fighter reports, noting that their behavior did not appear to be threatening, and mentioned possible explanations, for instance that they were [electrostatic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic "Electrostatic") phenomena similar to [St. Elmo’s fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo's_fire "St. Elmo's fire"), [electromagnetic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum "Electromagnetic spectrum") phenomena, or simply reflections of light from ice crystals. The Panel’s report suggested that “If the term ‘flying saucers’ had been popular in 1943–1945, these objects would have been so labeled.”[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter#cite_note-ufoevidence.org-2) It was in more recent times that evidence of what mechanism caused those could be observed. [https://pubs.acs.org/jpcafh/article-abstract/117/39/9931/1594431/Further-Insight-into-the-Nature-of-Ball-Lightning?redirectedFrom=fulltext](https://pubs.acs.org/jpcafh/article-abstract/117/39/9931/1594431/Further-Insight-into-the-Nature-of-Ball-Lightning?redirectedFrom=fulltext) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2026, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/532 "2026-08-29T23:20:02Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Nope, Yep. > In theory, plasma is not dense enough to reflect radar waves but depending on the energy put into creating the plasma voxel, the supersonic shockwave that creates the bang will create a change in air pressure that radar can detect. This is because it alters the density and refractive index of the air, affecting how radio waves, which radar uses, to propagate through it and detect it. > Now, with the observations of the Tic Tac and other unidentified aerial phenomena or UAPs over the assigned military testing areas and observed by US Navy aircraft in visual light, infrared and radar and performing such high-speed manoeuvres that defy everything we know about flight in air, might these actually be a highly advanced version of what we have seen to create instant incredibly realistic aerial decoys that look like real craft, of whatever origin. (From the Curious Droid video that clearly was not seen because your reply was too fast to see that part.) ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2026, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/533 "2026-08-30T16:16:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The use of lasers by the military does explain a lot of the hard to explain cases IMHO. I may be over-skeptical, but I don’t find the ‘laser-induced plasma ball’ explanation particularly convincing, either. The Nimitz UFO incident was in 2004, and this incident is perhaps the one which lends itself best to a ‘laser-induced plasma’ explanation; but that was 22 years ago, and there has been no evidence that this ‘laser-induced plasma’ technology has developed sufficiently well to be usable in warfare (or in entertainment) since that time. We have a perfectly good explanation for UAP phenomena already; human fallibility and the Low Information Zone. There is no need at present to appeal to ‘currently secret wonder technology’ that has never been used in earnest (whether in conflict or for entertainment purposes). See > **[Holographic Displays 2026: Brutal Truth About Progress & Limits - Techgenyz](https://techgenyz.com/holographic-displays-progress-roadblocks/)** > > Discover the real progress and biggest roadblocks in holographic displays in 2026 - from light-field tech to why mainstream adoption remains years away. > [@](#): > > Research labs continue experimenting with volumetric displays that use spinning surfaces, fog, plasma, or lasers to create images in mid-air. These demonstrations are impressive and often viral, but they are fragile, power-hungry, and unsuitable for continuous use. > > They excel as proofs of concept, not consumer products. The leap from controlled lab environments to living rooms or offices remains enormous. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2026, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/534 "2026-08-30T16:50:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It was in more recent times that evidence of what mechanism caused those could be observed. > [https://pubs.acs.org/jpcafh/article-abstract/117/39/9931/1594431/Further-Insight-into-the-Nature-of-Ball-Lightning?redirectedFrom=fulltext](https://pubs.acs.org/jpcafh/article-abstract/117/39/9931/1594431/Further-Insight-into-the-Nature-of-Ball-Lightning?redirectedFrom=fulltext) Unfortunately ball lightning is also inadequate as an explanation. The longest reliably-recorded example of ball lightning was less than two seconds long, so it is unlikely to explain sightings many seconds or minutes in length. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball\_lightning#Direct\_measurements\_of\_natural\_ball\_lightning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning#Direct_measurements_of_natural_ball_lightning) > [@](#): > > At a distance of 900 m (3,000 ft), a total of 1.64 seconds of digital video of the ball lightning and its spectrum was made, from the formation of the ball lightning after the ordinary lightning struck the ground, up to the optical decay of the phenomenon ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2026, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/535 "2026-08-30T18:12:27Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Unfortunately ball lightning is also inadequate as an explanation. The longest reliably-recorded example of ball lightning was less than two seconds long, so it is unlikely to explain sightings many seconds or minutes in length. That was for the WWII sightings at and around planes. For the most recent cases of Extra or Crypto the laser explanation is, as I said and to clarify, more geared towards **some** of the hard to explain incidents. Overall I do agree with you, a lot of the recent incidents do have prosaic explanations. One mentions lasers (for more recent cases) to point out that there are still more **likely** explanations than “it was extra or crypto aliens”. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2026, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/536 "2026-08-30T22:04:44Z")
Yes, it seems entirely possible that the Foo Fighter phenomenon was caused by high-flying WWII planes causing some sort of atmospheric phenomenon that followed them at relatively close range. This sort of high-level propeller-driven flight is very rare nowadays, so maybe we don’t see this phenomenon any more. But I wouldn’t expect it to be ball lightning; perhaps a form of low-pressure electrical discharge, like neon light. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2026, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/537 "2026-08-31T22:48:05Z")
Ask for your best examples of what you are talking about several times, and the best you can do is “No, you!”? I’d much rather have a strong example of what specifically you are talking about, if you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2026, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/538 "2026-09-05T22:08:59Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Yes, it seems entirely possible that the Foo Fighter phenomenon was caused by high-flying WWII planes causing some sort of atmospheric phenomenon that followed them at relatively close range. It can “seem” to be anything you want if you cherry pick speculation by people who weren’t there 80 years later. Read the primary source documents, the first-hand accounts from the aircrews. Not what somebody who wasn’t there wrote about what they think happened. These were trained observers, smarter than the average bear and they were describing things that were not hallucinations, ball lightning or anything of the sort. They knew what ball lightning or static discharge displays were. There were myriad events of strange stuff that falls under the general description of “foo fighters”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2026, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/539 "2026-09-05T22:36:00Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Read the primary source documents, the first-hand accounts from the aircrews. Not what somebody who wasn’t there wrote about what they think happened. These were trained observers, smarter than the average bear and they were describing things that were not hallucinations, ball lightning or anything of the sort. [Not really, the latest pilots showed to be not reliable once better explanations of what they saw showed up.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7jcBGLIpus) Also, as another doper reported in a different thread, even the old WWII pilots were not very good at reporting other incidents. > **[How Reliable Were WWII Pilot Kill Counts? | War History Online](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/how-reliable-pilot-kill-counts.html)** > > In the heat of an aerial battle, can you really keep track of how many planes have been shot down? During WWII, intelligence officers believed that this > Recent research which compares the kill claims to recorded losses has confirmed the problem. An overclaiming in the region of 3-1 to 5-1 was common in the reports. There are many possible reasons for the overclaiming of kills to occur. > > The most likely reason is that pilots and gunners were unable to accurately keep track of downed enemy planes during an aerial engagement. The speed and confusion of these battles along with the multiple hits from various guns would make it impossible to track any movements with particular accuracy. > > There was also a very small minority of fighter pilots who would be able to remain completely calm during combat. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2026, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/540 "2026-09-05T22:59:20Z")
That is another thing repeated ad nauseum, with little to no evidence to back it up. A lot of UFOlogy consists of old bad examples often disproven but almost _never_ discarded, which is why I continuously ask for the best examples of whatever woo is being pushed…and I almost never get those best examples. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108.md?page=28)