# What are UFOs if they're NOT alien spacecraft? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108 "2024-02-26T17:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/141 "2024-03-01T12:05:07Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > As an aside of no scientific significance whatsoever, when my son was very young I got him a book on dinosaurs, which is of course a fascination of all kids. Near the end was an artist’s conception of what a non-avian dinosaur might look like today, after 65 million years of evolution. I’m so sorry that the book has been lost because that picture haunts me to this day, and neither internet searches nor suggestions by helpfully inclined posters have found the image. But it’s a dinosaur with a face and eyes that exude intelligence in a way that is strangely disturbing, like looking at an actual alien. That would be the Dinosauroid: > **[Dinosauroid](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosauroid)** > > The dinosauroid is a hypothetical species created by Dale A. Russell in 1982. Russell theorized that if a dinosaur such as Stenonychosaurus had not perished in the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event, its descendants might have evolved to fill the same ecological niche as humans. While the theory has been met with criticism from other scientists, the dinosauroid has been featured widely in books and documentaries since the theory's inception. > In 1982, Dale A. Russell, then curator of vertebrat... There are some great TetZoo articles on the topic, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/142 "2024-03-01T15:25:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That would be the Dinosauroid It was probably in reference to that, or perhaps an independently developed idea. But none of the sculptures pictured in that article come anywhere even close to the truly haunting image I remember from that book. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/143 "2024-03-02T02:27:13Z")
Getting back to the OP question, I wonder whether something like magnetic anomalies might act on the optic nerve to produce visions of moving lights which aren’t really there. The obvious objection to that is if magnetic fields affect the optic nerve, why doesn’t the MRI produce cerebral lightshows? Which makes me wonder about any possible other tellurian energy fields that could act on the optic nerve. This could account for sightings not just of UFOs but angels, ghosts, jinn, and similar reported phenomena through the ages. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/144 "2024-03-02T03:57:04Z")
I think I may have seen Haidinger’s Brush a few times while looking at the sky. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/145 "2024-03-02T09:39:52Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There’s certainly no evidence for either the intelligence or the physical capacity to make and use tools, for example. What would such evidence look like? Given that multiple species of birds, fish and octopuses use tools. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/146 "2024-03-02T21:37:54Z")
I’m not a paleontologist, but I would think that any evidence would have to be in the form of indirect inference, such as assessing the capabilities of modern-day birds and reptiles like crocodiles and alligators which, while not descended from dinosaurs, are closely related. Intelligence has traditionally been associated with the ratio of brain size to body mass, which if true does not bode well for most dinosaurs. But there’s been recent speculation that dinosaurs like T-rex, famous for their tiny brains, may in fact have packed enough neurons to even rival the intelligence of a baboon, IIRC. So it’s not impossible that some dinosaurs may have been smart enough to use tools, but that’s purely speculative, and you’re right, speculation is about as close as we’ll probably ever get. The T-rex was additionally encumbered by comically tiny arms, which were too small to do much of anything useful. In any case, on the thread topic, my belief is that life will almost certainly develop wherever conditions are suitable, given only enough time, and intelligence will evolve where it provides a survival benefit. To the extent that the accepted wisdom that dinosaurs weren’t very bright is true, even after some 165 million years of evolution, I would posit that it’s because intelligence didn’t offer any survival edge in the conditions in which they lived. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/147 "2024-03-02T22:05:08Z")
Have there been any fossils which showed the actual steucture of the brain? Avian brains are very different, but have high neuron density. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/148 "2024-03-02T22:29:49Z")
Not the actual structure (for dinosaurs), **[but here’s an overview of a recent paper](https://www.science.org/content/article/some-dinos-may-have-been-brainy-modern-primates-controversial-study-argues)** proposing avian-like neuron density in the cortex of theropod dinosaurs like the T-rex. > Based on estimated brain masses obtained with CT scans of dinosaur skulls … and a large database of brain masses of birds and reptiles from last year, [Suzana Herculano-Houzel, a neuroanatomist] developed an equation correlating an animal’s brain mass with the approximate number of neurons in the cerebrum, which includes the cortex. She found that theropod brains roughly follow the same rules as warm-blooded modern birds, such as ostriches, whereas the brains of sauropod dinosaurs, such as Brachiosaurus, are more similar to those in modern cold-blooded reptiles. ---
**Author:** ![PapaD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7c8e57/32.png) [@PapaD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PapaD)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/149 "2024-03-03T15:39:39Z")
Charles Babbage, the brilliant English mathematician, inventor, and mechanical engineer, originated the concept of a programmable digital computer in 1822. He experienced more than a few glitches along the way. The fictional Matrix is nothing more than paranoid, speculative pseudoscience. The phenomenon of UFOs or UAPs is an example of mass hysteria. Just because you think they’re real doesn’t mean they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/150 "2024-03-03T20:28:30Z")
> [@PapaD](#): > > Charles Babbage, the brilliant English mathematician, inventor, and mechanical engineer, originated the concept of a programmable digital computer in 1822. He experienced more than a few glitches along the way. The fictional Matrix is nothing more than paranoid, speculative pseudoscience. The phenomenon of UFOs or UAPs is an example of mass hysteria. Just because you think they’re real doesn’t mean they aren’t. Yes, but the concept of virtual reality seems to have taken longer, unless you count dreams, which afaik never broached the idea of a _shared_ virtual world. BTW: when people talk about evolutionary/technological milestones, one of my favorites is that we only actually constructed the first Turing Complete computer 78 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/151 "2024-03-04T00:35:41Z")
> [@PapaD](#): > > Just because you think they’re real doesn’t mean they aren’t. Going down in my ‘quotes to remember’ book. ---
**Author:** ![PapaD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7c8e57/32.png) [@PapaD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PapaD)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/152 "2024-03-04T00:40:55Z")
Don’t get me started on Bezo’s misanthropic multiverse, a failed solution in search of a non-existent problem. For other visions of shared virtual worlds, see Plato, Dante, Swift, H. G. Wells, C. S. Lewis, Asimov, Heinlein, Stephen King, _et. al._ All good attempts to interpret human nature if you like that sort of thing, but still, we’re right here, and we’re not going anywhere. Better start taking care of the world we’ve got instead of looking for someplace else to be. But I’m all for sending Elon to Mars on the first available transport. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/153 "2024-03-04T16:37:04Z")
> [@PapaD](#): > > But I’m all for sending Elon to Mars on the first available transport. I’d be satisfied sending him on the first transport _towards_ Mars. Getting more than a couple miles above the launch pad before something goes wrong is good enough; all the rest is gravy. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/154 "2024-03-08T17:43:45Z")
> **[Pentagon report finds no evidence of alien visits, hidden spacecraft](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/08/no-ufo-aliens-pentagon-report/)** > > Claims about secret government programs reverse-engineering extraterrestrial technology are based on “circular reporting” and hearsay, investigators found. Unpaywalled repost: [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pentagon-report-finds-no-evidence-of-alien-visits-hidden-spacecraft/ar-BB1jyLop](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pentagon-report-finds-no-evidence-of-alien-visits-hidden-spacecraft/ar-BB1jyLop) Here is the full report: > **[DOPSR-CLEARED-508-COMPLIANT-HRRV1-08-MAR-2024-FINAL.PDF](https://media.defense.gov/2024/Mar/08/2003409233/-1/-1/0/DOPSR-CLEARED-508-COMPLIANT-HRRV1-08-MAR-2024-FINAL.PDF)** > > 708.58 KB ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/155 "2024-03-08T17:49:15Z")
Only the truly culpable deny their culpability! Denying the existence of aliens is exactly what you would expect alien-controlled people to say. Hence, there are aliens. QED. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/156 "2024-03-08T18:25:37Z")
And counter-revolutionary traitors against the People! ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/157 "2024-07-25T18:37:00Z")
I just got through listening to a fairly lengthy interview with one of the navy pilots who claim they see them almost every day. and have been for years. He explained the fuzzy tic tacs as lack of an optical camera. So you you know they are there and have been for years, you see them everyday… just take a damn camera with you! According to Aviation Data OAG, last week there were 21,085,526 passenger flights worldwide. With an average of 86 window seats per plane. That’s 1,813,355,236 opportunities for a cell phone to get a clear photo. Almost **two billion** per week. There are no aliens-from-another-planet UFOs. It defies logic to even entertain the idea that there are any. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2024, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/158 "2024-07-27T05:54:54Z")
This. Thing is, human perception (and for that matter camera resolution) are limited things; it’s _inevitable_ that there will be many “UFOs” due to the simple fact we don’t have the ability to perfectly identify everything we see. That doesn’t mean that most of them are anything other than something perfectly mundane that’s poorly seen. And the minority that _aren’t_ “mundane” are almost certainly something interesting but not extraordinary. It would actually be kind of odd if nobody ever saw something unusual in the sky after all. But they’ll be rare weather phenomenon, secret military flights or aircraft, that sort of thing; not aliens, “glitches in the simulation” or Bigfoot riding a broom. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/159 "2024-07-27T15:45:18Z")
Moreover, one would expect the distribution curve of such “sightings” to follow a simple statistical pattern: a few being almost certainly identifiable as mundane phenomena, the middle majority being more ambivalent, and some outliers being downright baffling. In other words, the “small percentage of very strong cases” that Dr. J. Allen Hynek ended up with. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2024, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108/160 "2024-07-27T16:04:32Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I had this idea to write a story in which the explanation for all of the alien visits is that they want to witness solar eclipses, as that’s not something you can see just anywhere in the galaxy. > [@OldGuy](#): > > If you had a spaceship capable of interplanetary travel, it would be a simple matter to fly to someplace where almost any star and some object circling it had the same apparent diameter and see an eclipse any time you wanted to. But surely a total solar eclipse is more interesting on a planet with an atmosphere in which the sky also goes dark. A planet with an atmosphere that naturally has a satellite that results in total solar eclipses that perfectly eclipse the sun so that you can see the corona in the darkened sky has got to be fairly unusual. In space with no atmosphere the sky stays dark whether you’re having an eclipse or not. And you don’t even need another orbiting object between you and the sun to create an eclipse. Heck, in space with no atmosphere and no luminous sky you can create a total solar eclipse with your thumb, which goes without saying is not all that interesting. On this topic, another attraction in our solar system are the rings of Saturn. They are much more dramatic than most planetary ring systems and may well be pretty unusual, if not unique. (Not that I actually think that ETs are visiting our solar system to see the local attractions.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-ufos-if-theyre-not-alien-spacecraft/998108.md?page=9)