# What are you expecting from me on Thanksgiving **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 29, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425 "2003-09-29T03:46:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/81 "2003-10-02T01:37:40Z")
C’mon, everyone, the war is in the past! We need to move on! There may have been some dubious claims made, but there’s no need to hold anyone accountable for them. Can’t we all just get along? [kicks **Scylla** in the head] Scylla: “Ow! What the \*!@#& was that for?” **Scylla** , that kick to the head is all in the past! Water under the bridge, and all that. You should stop your hateful attempts at character-assassination and join us in moving on with the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/82 "2003-10-02T02:28:23Z")
My real beef with the centri part is that it was just a part, and two, they would need _thousands_ of complete centrifuges. I assumed, as a matter of course taht Hussein had banned weapons. I’m quite surprised that none have turned up. I first began to really doubtthat there were any of these weapons when the admin’s emphasis changed from weapons to weapon programs. From the git-go I felt that we were getting hosed because every criteria that Iraq met was also met more strongly by other nations. To me, that meant that there was an unstated reason that seperated Iraq from the likes of Iran, Pakistan, No Korea etc. Then, there were the repeated “not-lies” that gave birth to Hussein bin Laden. My native distrust fior govt was propelled to the forefront. I find it commendable as well taht **Scylla** has decided to reconsider. I contact many who’re not to that point yet. They’ve blithely moved on to trying to justify the invasion on the grounds of Hussein being a bad guy. When I point out that some Americans feel taht US foreign policy should be based on American interests rather than Iraqi interests, I get the ‘Liberal-America-hater-wants-us-to-fail’ schtick. As someone pointed out to **Shodan** , conservatism is not defined by support for this invasion of Iraq. If it were, then Pat Buchanan would be a liberal. Anyway, kudos to **Scylla** if he’s saying what I think he’s saying. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/83 "2003-10-02T02:43:28Z")
SimonX: > [@](#): > > My real beef with the centri part is that it was just a part, and two, they would need thousands of complete centrifuges. IIRC it’s “parts” not “part” and these are supposedly the unreconstructable or difficult to acquire parts so that a centrifuge could be rebuilt easily with these key parts. You are quite correct though that one centrifuge is pretty much useless. As I’ve said, it is not conclusive, it is not a smoking gun, it is not justification, but it’s also not unimportant or dismissable. It’s a relevant piece of positive evidence. Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention about the Saddam as deciever with regard to WMD hypothesis is that it does a good job of explaining why Hussein would give the go ahead to his commanders to use chemical weapons on invading Americans as he supposedly did when they had no such weapons. I can think of alternate reasons why he might do that other than as a campaign of bluffing (i.e. it might be a last ditch effort to stall the invasion) but it also fits the deceiver hypothesis. Bear in mind that I am not asserting this hypothesis as fact, simply arguing against its outright dismissal. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/84 "2003-10-02T03:01:45Z")
What I’d like is for every citizen of this country to sit down and think really hard about the root cause of this debacle. Me, I’ve got it down to _too much power in the Executive branch_. That problem needs desperately to be solved. Who the person votes for next year is far less important than realizing that this is the problem, and working towards getting it solved somehow. Also, what **TVeblen** said. And congrats, **Scylla**. To strictly answer the OP: Cabernet. Gallo will do; I’m too much of a wino to be particular. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/85 "2003-10-02T03:02:38Z")
I still don’t doubt that Hussein was not above lying and deceiving the way that the ocean’s not above the sky. The lack of an imminent threat part is being dealt with by reminding us that it was a pre-emptive strike against an emerging threat before it fully materialized. (re rebuttal to Kennedy’s purely opportunistic attacks. The schmuck shouldn’t’ve voted for it if he thought it was such a sham.) The problem with that one is that the imminent threat of Qaeda has yet to be eliminated. So, it seems of doubtful wisdom to go after an immaterial(ized) threat with both barrels while another threat, proven and imminent, is put on the back burner, (relatively). The whole thing says to me, “unstated reasons.” I suppose that the ‘re-make the ME’ thing is taken seriously in the Admin. Which is a shame as it appears to be naively executed. Many of those, (that I have contact with), who’ve been apologists for the admin’s tack on this divisive affair have yet to even speculate on what conditions would call for a re-evaluation of their position. I voted _for_ GWB. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/86 "2003-10-02T03:19:59Z")
There’s a headline at the top of the drudge report claiming that Kuwait has just foiled an attempt to smuggle chemical weapons and bio-warheads out of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/87 "2003-10-02T03:25:04Z")
[http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181\_399454,00050004.htm](http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_399454,00050004.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/88 "2003-10-02T04:49:12Z")
I saw that earlier…somehow it just seems way too convenient, and mind you, it’s entirely my cynical opinion, based on no certain facts as of yet. The article states there’s no details of suspects, possible accomplices, no info from where they came from, where they were going, and info about how they were found and acquired. Also, they don’t know when they’ll be handed over. It feels like a Jedi mind trick. “There is no CIA leak, nothing to see here, move along. Oh look! Over there! WMDs!!” Second of all, why on earth would they be handed over to the FBI? Isn’t FBI a domestic force? Wouldn’t they be handed over to the CIA, or the DOD? I have no idea, it just doesn’t sound right. Be interesting to see what European country they were _allegedly_ headed for. The more cynical bits of me are nastily saying it’ll end up being blamed on France. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/89 "2003-10-02T05:39:55Z")
I saw that earlier…somehow it just seems way too convenient, and mind you, it’s entirely my cynical opinion, based on no certain facts as of yet. The article states there’s no details of suspects, possible accomplices, no info from where they came from, where they were going, and info about how they were found and acquired. Also, they don’t know when they’ll be handed over. It feels like a Jedi mind trick. “There is no CIA leak, nothing to see here, move along. Oh look! Over there! WMDs!!” Second of all, why on earth would they be handed over to the FBI? Isn’t FBI a domestic force? Wouldn’t they be handed over to the CIA, or the DOD? I have no idea, it just doesn’t sound right. Be interesting to see what European country they were _allegedly_ headed for. The more cynical bits of me are nastily saying it’ll end up being blamed on France. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/90 "2003-10-02T05:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*There’s a headline at the top of the drudge report claiming that Kuwait has just foiled an attempt to smuggle chemical weapons and bio-warheads out of Iraq. \*\* Sure there is. First off the FBI wouldn’t be involved. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/91 "2003-10-02T06:34:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*There’s a headline at the top of the drudge report claiming that Kuwait has just foiled an attempt to smuggle chemical weapons and bio-warheads out of Iraq. \*\* So some dumbass in Iraq has a bunch of WMDs and a plan to fuck up those European infidels, and he takes a look around, and decides to smuggle them thru Kuwait? The **only** neighboring country that actually **likes** America? There’s Jordan, Iran and Saudi Arabia, none of which are particularly scary places for a terrorist. Then there’s Syria, which is sitting on the Mediterranean Sea, just a hop-skip-jump from Europe. But none of those were good enough, they had to go with _ **Kuwait!?** _ To quote Jon Stewart: _ **"Wuuuuuuuuuh!?"** _ If this shit is for real those guys’ve gotta be dumbest thing since sliced bread. Say, I’ve got an idea where we’ll find the terrorists: standing in the middle of a field, staring up at a thunderstorm, mouths agape, slowly drowning… ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/92 "2003-10-02T06:37:45Z")
Also: what they said. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/93 "2003-10-02T11:43:09Z")
Isn’t Kuwait home to a large number of American troops at the moment? Maybe the goal was closer than Europe. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/94 "2003-10-02T11:44:41Z")
“chemical weapons and biological warheads” These _are_ relatively vague categories. I wonder what will come of it. ---
**Author:** ![GKW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@GKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GKW)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/95 "2003-10-02T14:53:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVeblen \* > \*\*Stuffing the genie back into the bottle won’t be easy. There is another option I"ll toss out just for consideration: > > _9. Place Iraq under unconditional U.N. control and authority._ > > Plusses: We have zero credibility now but maybe the UN’s broader base could craft a workable compromise. Any solution would have at least reasonable support from member nations to back it. This is really just a variation of your #8–dump it and walk away–but at least there might be hope of eventual order. > > Minuses: It’d be humiliating for the US and therefore possibly politically unsaleable domestically. The solution would be slow in coming and like any “solution by committee”, wouldn’t really please anyone; just be marginally palatable to buy time. \*\* _9 a. The U.S. needs to pour much more money into rebuilding Iraq_ not just the piddly $20.3 billion Congress is debating about. We need to give 'till it hurts over here. This is the only way I can see the to stem some of the hatred/mistrust of Iraqi people towards the U.S. Plusses: By handing over the power to the U.N. _and_ footing the bill, we will regain some of the world’s goodwill and possibly a new ally. Through our own sacrifices we’ll be reminded that future wars should not be undertaken without a thorough understanding of all the costs involved. It’s the right thing to do. Minuses: Our economy will suffer, Americans will suffer- but hey, I read somewhere that good comes from suffering, right? ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/96 "2003-10-02T19:16:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **By handing over the power to the U.N. and footing the bill, we will regain some of the world’s goodwill and possibly a new ally.** This one gets my vote. I think it may very well may be the final nail in the coffin of our nation, but so long as it at least _helps_ to stop the cycle of death… What do you do about pissed people with guns and bombs? Not much you _can_ do. Just try not to piss them off in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/97 "2003-10-03T02:21:16Z")
**Scylla** I have not found one legitimate news source with that story- looks like you have been hoaxed. No offense, but Drudge is the last step above the Weekly World News. Look for yourself: > **[Google News](https://news.google.com/topstories?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en)** > > Comprehensive up-to-date news coverage, aggregated from sources all over the world by Google News. Even more bad news for you and **Shodan** , Kay’s report is now in: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - Chief U.S. weapons searcher David Kay reported Thursday he had found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (news - web sites), a finding that brought fresh congressional complaints about the Bush administration’s prewar assertions of an imminent threat from Saddam Hussein. > > Kay, in a report to Congress, described evidence of a possible small-scale biological weapons effort, and said searchers had substantial evidence of an Iraqi push to boost the range of its ballistic missiles beyond prohibited ranges. > > But his team had found only limited evidence of any chemical weapons effort, he said, and there was almost no sign that a significant nuclear weapons project was under way. > > . . . > > The lack of substantive findings so far brought immediate negative reactions from both Republicans and Democrats in Congress — and also seemed certain to raise new questions among allies overseas about the Bush administration’s justification for going to war. > > “I’m not pleased by what I heard today, but we should be willing to adopt a wait and see attitude — and that’s the only alternative we really have,” said Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. > > Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., said of Kay’s briefing: “There was talk about facilities that might. There was talk about intent. But there was not talk about weapons of mass destruction. … There’s nothing we can point to and they’re asking for another six to nine months.” > > The administration’s assertions about Iraq’s weapons programs and ties to terrorism, and the intelligence conclusions behind those assertions had driven the administration’s case for war. > **[Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](https://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=%2Fap%2F20031003%2Fap_on_re_mi_ea%2Firaq_weapons_hunt&cid=540&ncid=716)** > > The latest news and headlines from Yahoo! News. Get breaking news stories and in-depth coverage with videos and photos. And even worse news- the current poll numbers: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Most Americans now believe the Iraq (news - web sites) war was not worth it, according to CBS News/New York Times poll released on Thursday which showed a sharp fall in public confidence in President Bush (news - web sites)'s ability to handle foreign and economic policy issues. > > The poll found new lows for Bush’s foreign policy performance, which garnered just a 44 percent approval rating. Among respondents, 50 percent lacked confidence in his ability to handle an international crisis and 53 percent said they now believed the Iraq war was not worth it. > > Bush’s overall job approval rating was just above 50 percent, almost back to the level before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and down sharply from his 89 percent approval rating after the attacks, the poll said. Just watch them drop further tomorrow when word of Kay’s report gets out. > **[Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](https://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=%2Fnm%2F20031003%2Fus_nm%2Fbush_poll_dc_6)** > > The latest news and headlines from Yahoo! News. Get breaking news stories and in-depth coverage with videos and photos. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/98 "2003-10-03T02:22:26Z")
Kay hasn’t found anything, and he seems to me very credible in the way he’s presented his asessment of the evidence, neither over nor underplaying his conclusions. He seems factual rather than political. I hope that report will be released shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/99 "2003-10-03T02:29:19Z")
Kay hasn’t found anything, and he seems to me very credible in the way he’s presented his asessment of the evidence, neither over nor underplaying his conclusions. He seems factual rather than political. I hope that report will be released shortly. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/100 "2003-10-03T03:03:59Z")
Kay did ask for 9 more months. July 2004. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425.md?page=6)