# What are you expecting from me on Thanksgiving **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 29, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425 "2003-09-29T03:46:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/121 "2003-10-04T19:11:32Z")
Svin: Thanks man, you seem to be the only one interested in hashing this out sans rhetoric, and I’ve always known you to be reasonable. If you want to read the report in detail (there’s several transcripts of kaye’s testimony on line,) I’ll probably start a thread on it in GD tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/122 "2003-10-04T19:26:20Z")
I suspect that Kay was pressured by the WH to inject some phony optimism into the report, to inflate imagined desires for WMDs into “programs” and to characterize the failure to find the slightest trace of actual stocks as “inconclusive.” **Scylla** seems to be conceding that there was never any immence and that in itself is enough to make the invasion illegal. It’s also a _de facto_ concession that Bush was lying when he said he knew for a fact that Iraq posed an imminent threat via WMDs. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/123 "2003-10-04T19:37:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\ ***Scylla** seems to be conceding that there was never any immence and that in itself is enough to make the invasion illegal. \*\* I am not aware that that would make the war illegal. Could you cite the law broken? > [@](#): > > \*\*It’s also a _de facto_ concession that Bush was lying when he said he knew for a fact that Iraq posed an imminent threat via WMDs. \*\* No. It’s not, though that is one of several possibilities. I’d prefer if you let me draw my own conclusions rather than assuming them for me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/124 "2003-10-04T19:44:44Z")
You serious? Are you _really_ going to try and pretend there is something here to _debate_? “Resolved: the Kay Report is the sorriest sack of shit since the Tonkin Bay Resolution” Something like that? Does the name "Custer"mean anything to you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/125 "2003-10-04T19:54:51Z")
Legality? Sure. No sweat. The Constitution clealy states that treaties that the US signs and the Senate ratifies are the law of the land. No ifs, ands, or buts. Back when we really _were_ the last best hope of mankind, we almost singlehandedly created the UN. To my mind, along with the Marshall Plan, one of our finest moments. To that end we signed the treaty that created it. We swore to abstain from aggressive war for any reason not directly related to our self-defense. No provision was made for paranoid fantasies. This fact is clearly demonstrated by GeeDubyas abortive attempt to get a second resolution specificly endorsing war. You remember that one, don’t you? How GeeDubya thrust his tremulous little chin out and swore he would take the vote _no matter what_. How he was going to make everybody “show thier cards”? Illegal. Immoral. Ill advised. And just plain sick. And done in my name. And yours. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/126 "2003-10-04T20:11:05Z")
Ready for another whopper? Another scoop of wholesale horsehit from the people who brought honor and integrity back to the White House? > **[THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ: RECONSTRUCTION; Report Offered Bleak Outlook About...](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/05/world/the-struggle-for-iraq-reconstruction-report-offered-bleak-outlook-about-iraq-oil.html)** > > Bush administration's optimistic statements that Iraqi oil wealth would cover most of cost of rebuilding are at odds with bleaker assessment of government task force secretly established to study Iraq's oil industry; Pentagon-based task force report... "The Bush administration’s optimistic statements earlier this year that Iraq’s oil wealth, not American taxpayers, would cover most of the cost of rebuilding Iraq were at odds with a bleaker assessment of a government task force secretly established last fall to study Iraq’s oil industry, according to public records and government officials. The task force, which was based at the Pentagon as part of the planning for the war, produced a book-length report that described the Iraqi oil industry as so badly damaged by a decade of trade embargoes that its production capacity had fallen by more than 25 percent, panel members have said. Despite those findings, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz told Congress during the war that “we are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon.” Moreover, Vice President Dick Cheney said in April, on the day Baghdad fell, that Iraq’s oil production could hit 3 million barrels a day by the end of the year, even though the task force had determined that Iraq was generating less than 2.4 million barrels a day before the war." Lies. Regiments of lies, marching in lock step, vast armies of lies, as far as the eye can see. Nixon was an amatuer. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/127 "2003-10-04T20:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > > * * * > > I am not aware that that would make the war illegal. Could you cite the law broken?\*\* To simplify what **'lucy** said, it was a violation of the UN Charter which specifies self-defense and “imminent threat” as the only legal justifications for an attack on the sovereignty of another country (that’s where that “imminent threat” phrase comes from and that’s why guys like me and 'lucy keep harping on it). The charter specifically _excludes_ any justification based on the internal political situation of the country (IOW, “Saddam is a bad guy” isn’t good enough). > [@](#): > > No. It’s not, though that is one of several possibilities. I’d prefer if you let me draw my own conclusions rather than assuming them for me. \*\* What are the other possibilities? Let’s break this down logically: 1.) Bush said he _knew_ that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the US via WMDs. He didn’t say he _thought_ so or that it was _probably_ so. He said he knew it for a fact. 2.) It was obviously _not_ a fact that Iraq posed such a threat. 3.) It is not possible for Bush to have known something for a fact that was not, in fact, a fact. 4.) His statement that he _knew_ cannot logically be true. 5.) Therefore he was lying. He made a false statement. He _knew_ he _didn’t_ know about WMDs. He was hoping. He thought there was a pretty good chance. He may have sincerely _believed_ it but he didn’t fucking _know_ it so he lied. Tell me how it’s possible for Bush’s statement to have been true. If it wasn’t true, it was a lie by definition wasn’t it. Show me how I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/128 "2003-10-04T21:05:55Z")
simple **Dio**. Some one he trusted could have lied to him. It’s not uncommon for some one to claim to know something w/o direct witnessing of the event. I ‘know’ that the capital of Nebraska is Lincoln. Have I seen the documentation of that fact? no. But I’ve seen it reported in a variety of sources that I trust. You’re falling victim (pardon the use of the word, please) to the SDMB tendancy to use the word “liar” when the more accurate word would be something like “Wrong”. BUsh was clearly wrong when he made those claims. We can know that now. At the time, he may have totally believed it to be true, thought it was likely true, thought it was probably true, exaggerated because he thought it was the gonna be true, etc. But to claim some one is a liar for saying “I know” vs. “I believe (based on the fact that people I trust have told me this is true)” is not, I think, correct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/129 "2003-10-04T21:25:29Z")
Except we also know that he was warned by the CIA that at least some of the information had not been confirmed (yellowcake) and that the WH chose to propagate it anyway. We also know that Bush has a past history of lying about things directly related to Iraq (such as fabricating fictional reports about nukes). Colin Powell, himself was quoted as calling bullshit on the script they gave him to present to the UN. I find it very difficult to believe that the CIA would assure the WH of something like the Iraq allegations without being damned sure of its info. What has actually been reported suggests just the opposite, that they were very reticent to say that they knew Iraq had WMDs but the WH chose to spew it out anyway. If Bush was simply misinformed then he is an incompetent idiot for not making sure. The WH has yet to produce any evidence that before the invasion they had received anything like an unqualified assurance from the intelligence community that Iraq definitely had WMDs. Now it may be that **Scylla** is simply not ready to concede a deliberate lie and I will not again try to make assumptions about his interpretation of the facts but given this administrations history with the truth and their penchant for self-serving propaganda I’m going to assume it was a lie. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/130 "2003-10-04T21:35:09Z")
But even all of what you’ve said can still be waved away with "he really believed person A’s assesment and didn’t believe the CIA"s report 'cause the other person was so certain etc. “Plausable deniability”. (and, frankly, I can also believe the ‘incompetent beyond belief’ stance as well). Never underestimate the power of self delusion (IOW, by believing one set while discounting the others, he could assure himself that he was taking the right stance etc, when happy coincidence it was also in his own personal ‘thing I want to do the most’ - hell that’s pretty much what he’s doing now - latching onto that one pathetic vial of crap in the one guys’ frig “See, I **was right!!!** ” ) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/131 "2003-10-04T21:48:42Z")
I guess we can just agree that the WMD claim was bullshit and leave it at that. I think you have a point about GWB’s capability for self-delusion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/132 "2003-10-04T21:52:01Z")
Elmer Fudd thinks he’s Churchill. Capacity for self-delusion is galactic. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/133 "2003-10-04T22:10:30Z")
Not entirely related story on self-delusion (remembered from _Pragmatics of Human Communication_, details of the below may vary from the book): Crazy guy who thinks he’s God sits in one corner of the room. Shrink walks in and sits in chair on the other side of the room. After a few minutes of silence, the shrink gets up, walks over to the crazy guy, and drops to his knees, offering up his keys to the room to the man, and saying “Please accept this offering from me in your honor. I know that you don’t really need the keys, as you can just walk through walls, but I’d like you to have them.”, and he leaves the keys with the nutcase, and walks back to his chair and sits. Nutcase looks at the keys, then looks at the shrink. Looks at the keys, looks at the shrink. Finally, he gets up, pulling his own chair after him, sits as close to the shrink as he can, stares him straight in the eye and says, “Doc, one of us is crazy.” Sorry, had to share. Continue, please. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/134 "2003-10-04T22:43:52Z")
**Scylla** : I’ve had a chance to read the report since I posted last, and will participate in your thread to the extent my time constraints allow. **Diogenes** : > [@](#): > > - To simplify what **'lucy** said, it was a violation of the UN Charter which specifies self-defense and “imminent threat” as the only legal justifications for an attack on the sovereignty of another country (that’s where that “imminent threat” phrase comes from and that’s why guys like me and 'lucy keep harping on it).\* You are incorrect. Nowhere in the Charter are states granted the right to defend themselves in the face of an “imminent threat.” In fact, technically, they are specifically forbidden from doing so. They are authorized to use force only in self-defense, _after_ they have been attacked, and then only until such time as the UN Security Council can intervene with international force. Check the text of [Articles 2 and 51](http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/) for clarification (Article 51 can be found in Chapter VII): > [@](#): > > _(from Article 2):_ > \*\*The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles. > > 1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members. > > 2. All Members, in order to ensure to all of them the rights and benefits resulting from membership, shall fulfill in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the present Charter. > > 3. _All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered._ > > 4. _All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations._\*\* > > _(from Article 51):_\*\* > Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence _if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations_, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.\*\* The phrase “imminent threat” appears in the text of the Bush administration’s recently released “National Security Strategy.” It found it’s way there from a much earlier draft written by Wolfowitz that was originally rejected by the Clinton administration. Providing that we agree that the UN Charter, signed by the US, is a treaty agreement, the Constitution clearly states that its provisions are to be considered “the supreme law of the land,” equal in force to the Constitution itself. See [Article VI](http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlevi.html): > [@](#): > > **This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; _and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land_; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.** Thus, as far as I can make out, this NSS document outlines a policy that is, technically speaking, unconstitutional. If the above interpretation is correct, it means that the invasion of Iraq was unconstitutional as well – since it was a violation of the UN Charter, of which the US is a signatory. Finally, this, posted by **elucidator** : > [@](#): > > - Friend **Scylla** dandles Grandchild #8 on his knee… > > “What did you do in those days, Grampa?” > > “Why, I stood shoulder to shoulder with my comrades **Minty, Diogenes, elucidator…** ”\* Great. So what am I, then? Chopped liver? Thanks for nuthin’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/135 "2003-10-04T22:54:34Z")
Hey, I gave myself third billing! Looking forward to your steel cage death match with whatshisface. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/136 "2003-10-04T23:20:01Z")
By the way, **elucidator** – I know this is a bit off topic, but you should really check out the latest at **Salon**. An article by John Dean and an interview with Ellsberg on the Plame scandal. All velly, velly inktellestink, in particular the Ellsberg piece. In addition the Washington Post has a piece on Kay’s report, including the [following quote](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40013-2003Oct3.html) : > [@](#): > > \*\*Even in furnishing additional information about the findings, Kay reported yesterday that he found no evidence for another one of Bush’s key claims – that Iraq sought uranium in Niger. _In fact, another African country offered uranium to Iraq, but Hussein declined, Kay reported._ \*\*From where I’m sitting, it looks like things are getting pretty hot up at the White House right now. Apparently, many on the Hill have their long knives out for Rove; and without him, Bush is lost. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/137 "2003-10-04T23:32:39Z")
Well, there! That proves conclusively that Saddam already _had_ as much uranium as he needed! What more proof do you need! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/138 "2003-10-05T01:17:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > What more proof do you need! How about this “proof” that **december** was actually one of **Bush** ’s pseudonyms: > [@](#): > > Roses are red > Violets are blue > Oh my, lump in the bed > How I’ve missed you. > Roses are redder > Bluer am I > Seeing you kissed by that charming French guy. > The dogs and the cat, they missed you too > Barney’s still mad you dropped him, he ate your shoe > The distance, my dear, has been such a barrier > Next time you want an adventure, just land on a carrier. [Right here.](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/03/bush.poem.ap/index.html) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/139 "2003-10-05T01:51:31Z")
Great catch, **Squink**! A poem like that to kick off the National Book Festival. Oh, the ironing is delicious. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/140 "2003-10-05T02:03:28Z")
You sure that wasn’t Maya Angelou? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425.md?page=8)