# What are you expecting from me on Thanksgiving **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 29, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425 "2003-09-29T03:46:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/141 "2003-10-05T02:07:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Svinlesha \* > \*\ ***Scylla** : > > I’ve had a chance to read the report since I posted last, and will participate in your thread to the extent my time constraints allow. > **Diogenes** :You are incorrect. > > Nowhere in the Charter are states granted the right to defend themselves in the face of an “imminent threat.” In fact, technically, they are specifically forbidden from doing so. They are authorized to use force only in self-defense, _after_ they have been attacked, and then only until such time as the UN Security Council can intervene with international force. Check the text of [Articles 2 and 51](http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/) for clarification (Article 51 can be found in Chapter VII):The phrase “imminent threat” appears in the text of the Bush administration’s recently released “National Security Strategy.” It found it’s way there from a much earlier draft written by Wolfowitz that was originally rejected by the Clinton administration.\*\* Well shit. I could have sworn that the “imminent threat” language was contained in [Resolution 3314](http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/3314.htm) which defines “aggression,” but now I can’t find it. I can’t seem to find any justifications for aggression through googling so now I don’t know why I thought the language came from the UN Charter. I stand corrected. I guess the invasion was even less justified than I gave the Bushistas credit for. The resolution I linked to does include this line in article 5: > [@](#): > > No consideration of whatever nature, whether political, economic, military or otherwise, may serve as a justification for aggression. which would seem to rule out any of the justifications that Bush has given so far. I agree that even if the US had been able to make a case for self defense from an imminent threat they still needed a UN sanctioned international intervention not a unilateral, UN defiant invasion by the US. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/142 "2003-10-05T02:15:48Z")
Hmmmmm. **Diogenes** , eh? Is that a _French_ name? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/143 "2003-10-05T02:21:20Z")
What.The.Fuck?! Jesus, **Diogenes** , get yourself a sock puppet for shit like this. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/144 "2003-10-05T03:33:23Z")
Whats the prob, **B.**?. Seems like a pretty straightforward post to me. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/145 "2003-10-05T03:41:08Z")
Despite the triumphant tone, despite the witticisms, despite the devotion to the President and his cause, I trust everyone fully understand just how sad and humiliation all this is. Our President is now revealed as just what a fair portion of the world thought he was–a reckless and thoughtless cowboy, a dangerous lunatic. The Kaye Report, or what I can find of it, is an indictment of this Administration. We have engaged in a war of aggression in order to rid our selves of a non-threatening annoyance and to control oil fields. By doing so we have badly damaged our international standing, consolidated our rivals and placed in jeopardy out ability to deal with pressing social and economic questions at home. That it seems to me is a nearly criminal betrayal of trust. I am not the least surprised that the Administration’s PR flacks and lead blowhards are hard at work spinning, obfuscation and minimizing. Things are just getting worse. Things are getting worse because there is no obvious, quick, cheap way out of this tangled web of our own weaving. To let the people who blundered into this hole continue to manage the affair looks to me like the height of folly. This is just sad. All the more so because it was predictictable and predicted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/146 "2003-10-05T03:49:53Z")
Hang on. In a few months, we can get our chance to chuck the buggers out. A splendid example for those who live in places where you can’t. If the people lead, the leaders follow. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/147 "2003-10-05T03:59:27Z")
**elucidator** [smoke signals over distant ridge] **Scylla** not respond to cold is like amber in dark rapids [/smoke signals] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/148 "2003-10-05T04:26:25Z")
In my tribe, I am called “Dances with Vulvas”. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/149 "2003-10-05T04:37:45Z")
I thought we established a long time ago that it was “Dances with Wolfowitz”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/150 "2003-10-05T04:41:12Z")
I am known as “Yellow Cake in His Hair.” Can’t you see that I am not afraid?! ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/151 "2003-10-05T05:30:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Svinlesha \* > Providing that we agree that the UN Charter, signed by the US, is a treaty agreement, the Constitution clearly states that its provisions are to be considered “the supreme law of the land,” equal in force to the Constitution itself. Not quite. Treaties bind private persons with full legal effect, but it’s well established that the executive branch can abide by the terms of a treaty, or refuse to abide by the them, at its discretion. See, for instance the late, lamented AMB treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/152 "2003-10-05T05:41:55Z")
The late, lamented African Merchant Bank treaty? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/153 "2003-10-05T05:47:33Z")
Me OG. **Diogenes** : > [@](#): > > _I stand corrected. I guess the invasion was even less justified than I gave the Bushistas credit for._ Yes, at least in this instance, you can take comfort in the fact that, once corrected, you turn out to be even more right than you were when you were wrong. If you know what I mean. That’s mainly why I brought it up. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/154 "2003-10-05T05:54:33Z")
I was wrong once. I thought I made a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/155 "2003-10-05T06:15:35Z")
**minty** : > [@](#): > > - Not quite. Treaties bind private persons with full legal effect, but it’s well established that the executive branch can abide by the terms of a treaty, or refuse to abide by the them, at its discretion. See, for instance the late, lamented AMB treaty.\* I disagree. Most treaties contain provisions for withdrawal. After withdrawing from a treaty, a state is no longer bound by it, naturally. The US, if I understand correctly, chose not to “reaffirm” the ABM treaty, and after that, it was no longer binding. As we write, Iran is considering withdrawal from the NPT; that’s also a fully “legal” right. What states _can’t_ do (well, to be technically correct, _shouldn’t_ do), on the other hand, is break a treaty agreement while they’re still a signatory of the treaty. In other words, the US is free to leave the UN; but, until it does so, it is bound by the rule laid down by the Charter. I mean, treaties would be pretty pointless if they allowed states to follow or not follow them at their own discretion, wouldn’t they? Having said that, it’s true that the US has had a long and ignoble history of breaking Article 2, most often by invoking Article 51. The US invoked 51 at the UN when it invaded Grenada, for example, claiming it was an act of “self-defense.” Same with Panama. In doing so, they employ an unusually broad interpretation of the Article – one they routinely condemn when other nations employ it, and which few other states, to my knowledge, consider valid. **elucidator** : I go to bed, sleep 6 hours, and when I next post, you’re right there again. No rest for the wicked, eh? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/156 "2003-10-05T06:26:53Z")
The wicked need more rest, thier spirits are heavy and tiresome to lug around. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/157 "2003-10-05T06:40:45Z")
Scylla and anyone else continuing to support the war: If you had the information contained in the Kay’s report a year ago, would you still have supported this particular war? Do you think that evidence is sufficient justification? This isn’t supposed to be partisan rhetoric (I initially supported the war, but then changed my stance solely due to realpolitik, and have gotten progressively more disgusted with the thing as the reconstruction has played out) but genuine curiosity at how strong of a case this actually would make for us to go to war. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/158 "2003-10-05T06:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _The wicked need more rest, thier spirits are heavy and tiresome to lug around._ 🙂 On the other hand, of course, there’s always Ritalin. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/159 "2003-10-05T16:21:45Z")
You can “disagree” all you want, Svinlesha, but [the law is what the law is](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article02/11.html#1). Jimmy Carter’s ditching of our treaty with Taiwan–which resulted in the Supreme Court holding that the termination of treaties is not a matter for the courts to get involved in–is a particularly good example. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425/160 "2003-10-05T18:20:32Z")
I could’ve sworn I saw what **Diogenes** saw too, but now I think it’s all mixed up with Article I, Section 10, last paragraph of the Constitution, to wit: _"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, **or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."** _ That must’ve been it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-expecting-from-me-on-thanksgiving/204425.md?page=9)