# What are you supposed to do if you're stopped at a red light that just does not change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2024, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452 "2024-12-10T17:36:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/1 "2024-12-10T17:36:05Z")
I read this anecdote in a Buzzfeed article about shenanigans in court. > Blockquote "I had a case where a guy was charged for running a red light. The thing is, he had been sitting at the lights for five minutes, and it hadn’t changed. The wording of the specific section under which he was charged related to stop signs and traffic lights and referred to them as ‘traffic regulation devices.’ I successfully argued that as the traffic light wasn’t changing, it wasn’t regulating traffic, and he got off. I couldn’t believe it when the judge ruled in my favour, neither could the police prosecutor! This actually happened to me once. Rolla, Missouri, c. 2022. Was at the intersection of Here and There, in the southbound lane of Here waiting for the light to turn green so I could make a left onto There. It stayed red for about ten minutes and never changed, even as the lights for cross traffic cycled several times. Eventually I decided to just chance it and, if I got pulled over, try to make my case to the cop or the court. However, it was late and there were no cops nearby so nothing came of it. What are you actually supposed to do though? Calling 911 seems a bit extreme. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/2 "2024-12-10T17:38:28Z")
At a certain point, when it’s obvious that it’s a glitch, you have to move forward or else you’ll back up a lot of traffic behind you. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/3 "2024-12-10T17:40:53Z")
It happens/used to happen a lot to motorcyclists or rule-abiding bicyclists. I generally would either wait two cycles (the other direction gets two green lights) and then go, or … hop off the bike and push the “Press to Walk” button – if there was one – to trigger … well … something. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/4 "2024-12-10T17:41:53Z")
I think I’ve made a right turn on red after waiting too long. Not always possible of course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/5 "2024-12-10T17:42:44Z")
Do state laws differ as to how long you wait before treating it as a stop sign and not a stop light? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/6 "2024-12-10T17:45:22Z")
ETA: Ninja’ed 4 times. Oops. Back up if necessary, get in the rightmost lane, and make a legal right turn on red. Then go wherever however to get to your destination avoiding that intersection. More realistically, part of the reason we have courts is that there are _unwritten_ commonsense exceptions to every law as written. When you encounter a situation where a commonsense exception applies, use it. Most likely there’s no cop around to see it. If that fails, most likely the cop who does see it can be explained out of a ticket right on the spot. And if not, the judge should buy the explanation. It should not depend on the wordsmithy shenanigans of whether or not a malfunctioning light is technically a “traffic regulation device” or not. That kind of wordsmithy nonsense is how SovCits beleive the law operates. It doesn’t. Guess what? If the judge doesn’t have the authority to throw it out on common sense grounds, they also don’t have the authority to decide a malfunctioning light isn’t a “traffic regulation device”. Because there is a statute that defines those terms and good bet it doesn’t have a carve out for malfunctions any more than the “no running red lights” law has a carve-out for malfunctions. So how come the judge can invent one carve-out but not the other more direct one? The answer is the whole story is BS. Not that it necessarily didn’t really happen once somewhere, but that it contains no deeper lessons about how the Law in general works. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/7 "2024-12-10T17:49:28Z")
Some years ago, the gates at a railroad crossing on a road near me were defective. Sometimes they would close, and stay closed, when there was no train anywhere remotely near. This situation went on for months. People who lived around here figured it out. And people who live in this area also know that no train on that particular bit of line is going to be moving very fast (due both to the need for frequent stops, and the condition of the tracks.) You’d come up to the closed gates and do a full stop; turn off the radio/whatever and take a good listen; look both ways – and then, presuming no evidence of any train (a couple of times a day there was one), drive around the barriers and go on your way. Yes, I know; but otherwise you’d be sitting there for half an hour or more and piling up traffic behind you on what, in this area, passes for a main road. One day I came upon those closed gates with a police car right behind me. I came to a stop, looked, listened; no train. I looked at the police car in my rear view mirror; and stayed put. After about two minutes of this, during which the driver of the police car presumably figured out my difficulty, the police car drove around me, drove around the gates, and went on its way. I followed. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/8 "2024-12-10T17:50:38Z")
I have had this happen to me thrice. I wait 2 full cycles then go when safe. If I get a ticket then I’ll fight it and hope the judge is reasonable. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > If the judge doesn’t have the authority to throw it out on common sense grounds There are some strict liability laws that do not allow for any explanation. They are “you broke the law therefore you are guilty.” We had an issue with registering a car. Long story but the judge said that if it were within his power he would dismiss the case but since in Colorado not registering you car is a strict liability tort, he **had** to find us guilty. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/9 "2024-12-10T18:00:19Z")
Good point. Once again there are exceptions to the exceptions. IOW it’s exceptions all the way down. 🤪 As to “… hope the judge is reasonable” … It’s a darn shame many jurisdictions have morphed traffic enforcement into a cynical revenue gathering system. Since traffic court is most folks’ sole contact with judges and courtrooms, it sure puts a sour taste in the mouth pretty well guaranteed to offset all the hagiographic Civics classes we all took in high school. And worse yet of course are the jurisdictions that convert traffic enforcement into overtly corrupt extortion rackets preying on the local citizens, passers-through, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/10 "2024-12-10T18:12:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do state laws differ as to how long you wait before treating it as a stop sign and not a stop light? I did a quick search and most just refer to _malfunctioning traffic lights_ and don’t spell out how long you need to wait to determine that. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/11 "2024-12-10T18:23:00Z")
I used to have a troublesome traffic light. I had to wait awhile and then go when it never switched to green. I’ve heard there is a sensor that tells the light there is a car waiting. Apparently it’s a bigger problem for cyclists. I started taking a different route home from work. I tried again after a month and the light was fixed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/12 "2024-12-10T18:31:21Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I used to have a troublesome traffic light. I had to wait awhile and then go when it never switched to green. I’ve heard there is a sensor that tells the light there is a car waiting. Apparently it’s a bigger problem for cyclists. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > It happens/used to happen a lot to motorcyclists or rule-abiding bicyclists. Or drivers who hang back much too far from the thick white line, thus yes not setting off ye olde magnetic road sensors. I’ve even had people snub me when I walk up to their window to tell them to pull forward, like _I_ am the one with the problem, not them. Guess they want to just sit there until Dooms-e-day. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeysBrother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ab097/32.png) [@MonkeysBrother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeysBrother)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/13 "2024-12-10T18:33:36Z")
On my bike ride home from work late at night, I cross a four lane street. My bike isn’t enough to trigger the signal, so I just wait till it’s clear, then cross. On several occasions I’ve pulled up to the intersection next to a car waiting for the light to change. But they had stopped so far forward (actually in the crosswalk) that they were past the sensor loops buried in the pavement. I suggested to the drivers that they back up till they were over the sensors and… like magic, the signal changed. I always wonder how long they would have sat there if I hadn’t come along. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/14 "2024-12-10T18:42:36Z")
That explains why the sensor problem seems intermittent. Usually there’s a line of cars at the light. It doesn’t matter how the next car queues in line. It’s the first car that matters. But, I was coming home late and there is little traffic. I would be the first car at the light and didn’t know there was a sensor. (many years ago) Traffic lights used to be on timers. One direction of heavy traffic might get assigned 5 minutes on green. The Secondary direction might get 2 1/2 mins. Years later, computers allowed changing the time throughout the day to fit traffic patterns. Sensors are part of that system. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/15 "2024-12-10T18:54:41Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I did a quick search and most just refer to _malfunctioning traffic lights_ and don’t spell out how long you need to wait to determine that. For a bicyclist, hope you are in a state with the Idaho Stop Law, the best law ever invented. It allows cyclists to treat stop signs as yields and red lights as stop signs. Wish it would spread more. There is also the more watered down version called the Delaware Yield. I primarily ride in ID, WA, and OR. ID, of course, has the ID version while OR and WA have the weaker version. > **[Idaho stop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop)** > > The Idaho stop is the common name for laws that allow bicyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. It first became law in Idaho in 1982, but was not adopted elsewhere until Delaware adopted a limited stop-as-yield law, the "Delaware Yield", in 2017. Arkansas was the second US state to legalize both stop-as-yield and red-light-as-stop in April 2019. Studies in Delaware and Idaho have shown significant decreases in crashes at stop-controlled intersections. The... ---
**Author:** ![GESancMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gesancman/32/2923_2.png) [@GESancMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GESancMan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/16 "2024-12-10T18:56:42Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > What are you actually supposed to do though? Calling 911 seems a bit extreme. It happened to me once in downtown San Jose. I absolutely did call 911. The path staying green was a one-way street going into a freeway on-ramp, where people were speeding up to get to freeway speed as they went through the intersection. It was a major accident waiting to happen, as more and more people ran the red light. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/17 "2024-12-10T20:04:47Z")
Got stuck in a line of cars when the first car wouldn’t go through or turn on a light stuck on red. There was a No Right Turn on Red sign there. There was a real concern because the police and fire department can turn all the lights red during emergency calls. But after no sounds of a siren for at least 5 minutes it was getting ridiculous and one by one the cars in line went around the car in front. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/18 "2024-12-10T20:35:06Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > For a bicyclist, hope you are in a state with the Idaho Stop Law, the best law ever invented. It allows cyclists to treat stop signs as yields and red lights as stop signs. Wish it would spread more. There is also the more watered down version called the Delaware Yield. I primarily ride in ID, WA, and OR. ID, of course, has the ID version while OR and WA have the weaker version. > > [Idaho stop - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop) The weaker Delaware version only applies to stop signs, not traffic lights. However, there’s also a Dead Red law that allows cyclists and motorcyclists to run red lights if they haven’t gotten a green in a certain amount of time. > **[Non-detection at traffic lights in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-detection_at_traffic_lights_in_the_United_States)** > > In order to improve intersection capacity in the United States, intelligent transport systems such as vehicle detection have been introduced at intersections controlled by traffic lights. However, these lights sometimes do not detect smaller vehicles such as bikes or motorcycles. > Traffic lights that do not service traffic due to non-detection may not meet the federal legal definition adopted by most states for a traffic control signal, which is any device "by which traffic is alternately directe... About half the states have these Dead Red laws, including OR and WA. In Oregon, AIUI the law only applies to left turns, not to straight ahead traffic. Don’t know about other states. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/19 "2024-12-10T21:07:34Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > But, I was coming home late and there is little traffic. I would be the first car at the light and didn’t know there was a sensor. (many years ago) There are still sensors today. In many cases now they are low-res cameras that are watching the intersection from the far side, commonly mounted up near the traffic signals themselves. If you’re vehicle is too small or inconspicuous or you stop it too far from the “box” in the camera’s field of view the signal control computer has been programmed to recognize as “a waiting car in lane #X” then late at night or even during rush time if you’re on a much more minor street crossing a major street you’ll sit there. And sit there. And sit there. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452/20 "2024-12-10T22:35:00Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > About half the states have these Dead Red laws, including OR and WA. In Oregon I was unaware of these laws…thanks for sharing! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-you-supposed-to-do-if-youre-stopped-at-a-red-light-that-just-does-not-change/1011452.md?page=2)