What are your electric vehicle plans?

It’s weird that anyone thinks this is ever the case, though. I occasionally need to haul 4x8’ sheets of plywood. I could, I guess, buy a pickup. Or I could just have Hope Depot deliver it for like the once per year that I need it.

It’s certainly true that some people have everyday needs that can’t currently be met by the EVs currently on the market. But it’s just as true that some people reject EVs because they only cover 99% or 99.9% of their needs, with the exceptions being either rare or outright imaginary, and in any case there is a different subset of needs that an EV meets but an ICE doesn’t (like, what if I need to run my car inside for an extended period?).

My Model 3 meets all of my ordinary needs, even including extended road trips. And heck, I was even able to pick up a big engine hoist with it to assemble my CNC mill. Doesn’t fit sheets of plywood, but then most vehicles don’t.

As we get a higher percentage of EVs on the road, we’ll see more EV charging stations & less gas stations; some may convert to EV recharging stations & some will close entirely but I expect to still be able to purchase gasoline/diesel. It’ll be like Cam2 & other racing fuels are today; one pump, off to the side at only a minority of gas/charging stations.
I’d expect a large hue & cry (& compensation) if the government makes certain assets impossible/illegal to use anymore, whether that’s poor folk driving an old beater because they can’t afford anything better or the Model T I was lucky enough to get a ride in this weekend. The owner has a collection of drivable antique vehicles that, collectively are worth some real money. If you take away the ability for them to be driven; the value goes way down as they become static museum pieces. There are a lot of antiques that don’t see the light of day regularly but only come out for car shows & a drive on a nice, sunny day.
I own a roadster; I didn’t buy it for it’s practicality (horrendous), I got it because of the incredible Smiles per gallon. The used, 12-yo Tesla roadsters are going for well over $100,000 today; the new model coming out will be over $200,000; far outta my price range for fun

I expect, at the extreme, fuel will still be available in gallon or litre containers - not illegal, but the most cost efficient for suppliers who don’t want to have old stock going bad.

My company has done the same, I have a car allowance every month that I currently take as cash but I also have the choice to.put the whole amount (before tax is taken off) to an electric vehicle lease. Until recently the only electric car open on the scheme was the Id3 and that was too small. looking to purchase something larger myself meant it would cost me substantially more per month than an ICE car. However, now the scheme has expanded and there are lots of options. Having now done my homework and test drives I’ve put an order in for a Skoda Enyaq in arctic silver. With the favourable company car tax and reduced fuel costs (plus the free fitting of a home charger) the sums are very much in my favour. Looking forward to it (though lead times are long, none of the other options, Tesla, Polestar, BMW etc. were any better)

We need carrots and sticks. I’m imagining more of a “cash for clunkers 2” type program to get old, inefficient ICE vehicles off the road. Doesn’t make sense today since EV makers are all selling as many as they can produce, but maybe in 5-10 years it’ll start to make sense.

I agree that gas will likely never be outright illegal, just more like racing gas and other specialized fuels are today. It’ll be expensive, but for a couple days a year not a big deal. And I’m not personally concerned about these types of uses; they’re negligible compared to the person commuting 60 miles in an old F150 every day.

I expect that many city centers will ban ICE vehicles completely, though. Some places have already banned cars completely. Or, maybe only ICE commercial vehicles, etc. There are lots of possibilities here.

I think you are all overestimating how many gas vehicles can be replaced, at least in the next couple of decades. EV sales currently make up 4% of American new passenger car sales. They make up a miniscule fraction of the extant car fleet, which now has an average lifespan of 12.5 years. So even if we were selling 100% EVs now, it would take 12 years or so before they made up even half the passenger car fleet.

And that’s just passenger cars. Light duty trucks are still almost 100% gas, and so are heavy trucks. Trucks have lot more use cases where electric simply doesn’t work. I say that as a huge fan of the new Ford Lightning. A Lightning, for exmple, has 230 miles of range in the standard model. In winter in northern regions, expect that to drop to 150 or so. Now throw a trailer on the back, and you are down to under 100 miles of range. Maybe 75 miles if it’s heavy.

All those bigger pickups out there like the F-350 are meant for serious weight hauling and gigantic trailer towing. The four wheels in the back are needed for the load. We’re not going to see those going electric in big numbers for a long time.

Lots of trucks are also used to drive to a job site, then are used on the job site all day to haul materials around, then driven home. Lots of job sites around here are more than 100 miles away.

The people who will buy electric trucks are peoole like in-city contractors, some farmers, people who like trucks but don’t put them to heavy use, etc. A foreman running building jobs in a city would be a good candidate. But there are many, many people who simply can’t or won’t buy an electric truck.

Then there is heavy machinery like tractors, road equipment, combines, excavators, etc. None of those are going to be electric powered in the near future - or at least not enough to matter.

In addition, the fleet of heavy equipment lasts a LONG time. There are plenty of farms around still using equipment from the 1950’s. I learned to drive a tractor on a 1939 crank-start Farmall, which was still in use in the 1980’s for light duty use around the farm. They are still being used today. Expensive heavy equipment lasts decades, and isn’t getting replaced in a few years.

And even given the very small percentage of electric vehicles being made, we are already running into shortages of batteries, rare earth elements, and other necessary components and minerals that are not just due to the current supply crisis.

Then we have infrastructure issues. Most neighborhoods cannot handle everyone having a level-2 or level-3 charger without serious upgrades to wiring and distribution. Many people in older parts of cities in smaller homes only have 60 amp services and cannot run a level 2 charger.

In addition, our foolish power infrastructure choices are goi;g to be causing grid issues with supply. California has already restricted car charging at certain times when the grid is strained. As more people buy electric cars, infrastructure issues could begin to dominate the discussion and limit the market.

We aren’t going to see gas pumps go away in our lifetime. What we will probably see is gas bars slowly removing extra pumps no longer needed and replacing rhem with electric chargers. So a gas bar that currently has 12 pumps might wind up with 4 pumps and spots for 8 EVs to charge, or something like that. But there will be gas available from pumps at gas stations for at least several more decades.

It’s still even possible that the tide will turn against EVs if we can’t get our power generation and infrastructure sorted out. Then they could become expensive options for the rich with good electrical aervice, and a luxury for everyone else.

It’s very early days yet for EVs.

It’s a long thread, so just FYI:

EV sales may be only 4% nationwide, but they’re 16% here in California. The trend shows no signs of stopping. In Norway, it’s 84%. Before you point out that Norway’s numbers are artificial, skewed by tax incentives and the like–yes, exactly. Incentives clearly work.

The natural lifetime of a car may only be 12 years, but we can reduce that artificially if necessary. It’s been done already. A new program can preferentially target the least efficient vehicles out there for replacement.

I really do not see residential infrastructure as being an issue. The lines are sized for air conditioning, which uses more juice than an EV, but at different times. There’s a huge afternoon peak when everyone is running their AC, so if everyone is charging at night it just isn’t a problem.

An L2 charger on 60 amp service is perfectly fine. L2 chargers start at 16 amps, which at 240v will add about 15 miles of range per hour to a typical car. More than enough for just about any commute given overnight charging. And, again–it’s at night, with reduced loads from other devices.

EVs don’t need rare earths. They can slightly increase efficiency in some cases, but you can build a perfectly decent EV without them. The early Model Ss did not use rare earths. It makes sense to use them judiciously, but if the price spikes there are alternatives.

Same for other limited metals like cobalt and nickel. Lithium iron phosphate batteries are great and only have lithium as a limiting input. Again, it makes sense to use the supply of cobalt and nickel judiciously, where the extra performance is useful. Most cars won’t need it.

That’s not to say that there are no issues at all, or that the growth of EVs is somehow automatic. We’ll need lots more mines and factories, but these are being built already.

Okay… I thought it had diverged to a more general discussion, but that’s fine.

Our plan for an EV was to buy a Ford Lightning. But we got a quote of $15,000-$35,000 to upgrade our electrical service for the Ford Pro Power charger, and with the big lightning battery you kind of need it, so we are back to waiting to see how the ,arkwt shakes out in a couple of years. The Lightning is backprdered until probably 2024 anyway for anything but the $93,000 luxury version.

Possible competitors would be the Hyundai Ioniq-5, Chevy Silverado EV (not a lot of details yet) or hopefully something new in the next couple of years. But we may just keep driving our ICE vehicles. One is 17 years old and runs like new (Saab 9-2X), and the other is a 7-year old Ford Escape that also runs fine. With both of us working at home, we don’t drive much - both cars still have under 100,000 km on them.

I wanted the Lightning as much for the backup power with huge battery aspect as for driving. A Tesla powerwall has a 17 kWh battery. The Lightning has 133 kWh battery and can be used as backup just like the powerwall, but rather than just lasting overnight it will run a house for days. As the grid gets less reliable, that was an important feature for me. But it only works with the Ford Pro charger, and we can’t install one of those for less than $20,000 in pur house, and it might be as much as $45,000. So that’s out.

Holy cow, it takes a 100 amp breaker. I wonder what percentage of homes can handle that without an upgrade.

I don’t know the percentages, but new homes are typically built with 200A panels. This page claims it started becoming common in the 80s:

Note that the combined breakers on a panel can be 2x or 3x the total panel capacity. It’s expected that not everything will be in use simultaneously.

Sam–I’ve got a 50A generator panel that I could just plug the Lightning into. Runs the boiler, fridge, and a couple lights. Should be easy-peasy. In fact, I plan to if needs must.

I’m sure this will be refion dependent. Our house was built in 2001, and it has a 100A panel. I think the newest ho es around here in new neighborhoods might have 150A or 200A, but I’m not sure.

I’ve been told that if you have an electric dryer, electric stove and air conditioning, the city won’t approve a permit for anything over 20A without a service upgrade from 100A to at least 150. That even rules out smaller level 2 chargers.

However, you can get a ‘load miser’ for close cases which involves installing a subpanel that prevents everything from running at once. Tou put optional stuff like the clothes dryer on the subpanel, and when the car is charging the dryer will be disconnected. Or, I believe the car can be on the miser and it will only charge when there is enough excess current. You can do the same thing just through care and through software with most electric cars, but the city won’t license that since you could change it at any time.

The load miser solution was around $5,000 extra, but wouldn’t work with an 80 amp charger on a 100A service. But if you are installing a lesser charger and your city tells you your electrical service won’t handle it, look into a load miser as a potential solution.

I just stayed at a hotel where the valet parking charged my car for me, and (I understand) moved it when another EV needed the charge spot. I checked in left the keys and picked up a fully charged car in the morning. I didn’t lift a finger.

I built my own “load miser” for about $200, apparently. The only high-amp circuit to my garage is to the AC compressor. I shared the lines with my car charger, but built a relay box that switches the charger off when the AC turns on. Works great.

Anyway, $5k sounds ridiculous. You can get decent splitters for <$400. No, it’s not 80A, but again, few users need that much.

Even a 240v, 20A charger is just fine for most. That’s still considered L2. It won’t quite do a full charge overnight for a 300-mile car, but it’s plenty for almost any commuting situation.

Never mind, wrong thread.

Hmm, I didn’t think of that. I recently stayed at the Sheraton at Universal Studios, and they had plenty of charging spots, but I didn’t use them since I wasn’t sure when I’d be around to move the car. I probably could have just left a keycard at the front desk. I’ll try to remember that for next time.

A lot of places are being really helpful with this, as there are more and more EV’s. I left the hotel a very positive review.

The price included the load miser, subpanel, wiring to the garage, and labor. The load miser was $1800, As I recall. The subpanel with installation was another $1200, then there’s wiring and labor. Also, I’m guessing everything is overpriced because they can. Around here the trades are operating on multi-week to multi-month backlogs. No need to give you a deal.

Certainly doing it yourself is a lot cheaper. You can get a suitable subpnel from Lowes for $200. But have you priced wire lately? 40A requires at least 8 gauge Romex. 80A requires 3 gauge wire. Southwest cable sells #3AWG Romex for $75 per meter. So a 50 meter run is $3650! That’s not even armored cable. If you are running down the outside of the house you’ll want armored cable.

This is one of the reasons service upgrades are so expensive now. If you have to pull wire for 200A from a distribution transformer to a home, that could easily be hundreds of meters. And the install from the property line alone would be for us about 50 meters. Wire of the gauge required is just crazy expensive now.

Sounds like a job for aluminum wire.

I overspecced everything in my installation. The relay is 50A. I used armored cable since although it’s indoors, I ran it along the surface of the sheetrock instead of inside. Only needed 2x 8 AWG conductors (chargers don’t need a neutral) plus a 10 AWG ground. Breaker is 30 A and the hard-wired charger is set to 24 A. Technically, I think my wiring setup would be to code even at 44 A (55 A continuous for THHN wire, and a 10 AWG ground acceptable up to 60 A), but again, I tried to overspec as much as reasonable.

Yeah, if you go for the maximum everywhere, it’s going to get expensive. Most users don’t need all that. An 80 A charger is cool and all but it’s massive overkill for most users.