# What are your main beefs w/ Atheism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777 "2007-06-20T22:42:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![truthpizza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@truthpizza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthpizza)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/81 "2007-06-21T15:20:09Z")
Speaking as an atheist, my main beef with atheism is that it implies that when we die we stay dead and won’t live in some paradise or be able to meet up with old friends and family members who have died before us and we won’t be able to what happens to the people who are still alive. However the main of the thread isn’t mainly the beef with athe_ism_ so much as the beef with athe_ists_. So my main beef with atheists is that too often when debating with theists, we are more interested in putting down the theist than we are with winning the theist over to the idea that our view of the world makes more sense. In other words we are lousy at public relations. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/82 "2007-06-21T15:30:40Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] “I believe God does not exist” asserts that you have a belief. “I do not believe God exists” asserts that you do not have a belief. If you intend to argue against this point, inquiring minds would like to know. [/QUOTE] “I believe God does not exist” is an assertion that there is nothing to have a belief in, “I do not believe God exists” is an assertion that you do not beleive in a deity. I could say both fit my point of view as an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/83 "2007-06-21T15:34:12Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Actually, although there are a few claims that come up with different numbers, most studies tend to indicate that the percentage of molesting Catholic priests is pretty consistent with the percentage of molesting ministers in other denominations. Marriage and having one’s own children does not seem to reduce the percentage of molesters, at all. [/QUOTE] That does not take away the sting. When you send your children to church they are supposed to be safe. Religious leaders are held to a higher level. I would not be satisfied that church molesters simply being the same ratio of average citizens. For me that is not nearly good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/84 "2007-06-21T15:37:57Z")
I have no beef with atheism. If the whole country, heck, the whole world were to go atheist, that would be alright with me. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/85 "2007-06-21T16:47:20Z")
Not so much a beef with atheism per se, but with a certain subset of straightdope atheists. A dozen of them will pile on you insisting that there is no herd behavior amongst atheists. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/86 "2007-06-21T17:01:28Z")
Atheists hold back too much from fear of being piled on by godists. The vast majority on this board is godists and they answer in mass to any possible affront to their well trained religious stances. (in mass is trying to be cute ,no need for correction) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/87 "2007-06-21T17:05:28Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Atheists hold back too much from fear of being piled on by godists. The vast majority on this board is godists and they answer in mass to any possible affront to their well trained religious stances. (in mass is trying to be cute ,no need for correction) [/QUOTE] Can I see a cite that the vast majority is Godists? In my experience the majority is atheists, at least the majority that enter into the atheist/theist debates. How would one reliably measure such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/88 "2007-06-21T17:05:51Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Essentially I define sex as: The union of the sex organs of two sexually reproducing animals for insemination and subsequent internal fertilization. So yes, I don’t actually consider said union when there is the presence of any form of birth control to be sex, either. [/quote] Are you saying that sex only occurs when it results in insemination, or when there’s a possibility of insemination? Is it impossible for infertile people to have sex, under your definition? What do you call what I did with my boyfriend? And why is it necessary to differentiate between what I did with my boyfriend, or what **Kimstu** does using contraceptives, and what you consider to be “real” sex? > [@](#): > > The word sex originated to describe the act which brought about reproduction. Cite? > [@](#): > > It’s almost exclusively used that way in animals. No, it’s not. > [@](#): > > While humans and a select few other animals do it for fun, too, in general I view the “fun” aspect of sex to simply be a part of the natural evolution of a species in order to promote reproduction. And the relevance of this to the definition of sex is? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/89 "2007-06-21T17:13:50Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] That does not take away the sting. When you send your children to church they are supposed to be safe. Religious leaders are held to a higher level. I would not be satisfied that church molesters simply being the same ratio of average citizens. For me that is not nearly good enough. [/QUOTE] Take the rant somewhere else. I made no defense of the situation as it has occurred. A particular statement was made that eliminating the reqirement for a celibate male clergy could possibly reduce the incidence of pedophilia and I presented information challenging that specific statement. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/90 "2007-06-21T17:37:13Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Atheists hold back too much from fear of being piled on by godists. The vast majority on this board is godists and they answer in mass to any possible affront to their well trained religious stances. (in mass is trying to be cute ,no need for correction) [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=mswas] Can I see a cite that the vast majority is Godists? In my experience the majority is atheists, at least the majority that enter into the atheist/theist debates. How would one reliably measure such a thing? [/QUOTE] Anyone who thinks that these threads are distorted because people on one side or the other appear to be afraid to respond has not had to wade through these threads. I do not know which “side” has more members, (a number that probably changes from week to week, both in terms of absolute membership and in terms of posters willing to wade into this swamp), but I am pretty sure that neither side has anything resembling a supermajority. The last time someone tried to find out the believer/non-believer representation on the SDMB was, I think, the thread [SDMBer religion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=350436&page=1&pp=50) from a year and a half back. (There may be one more recent, but I do not recall it–and, of course, the poll is hardly scientific, as it is based on who bothers to read **IMHO** , who had an intrerest in reading that thread, and who had an interest in self-reporting their belief status. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/91 "2007-06-21T17:37:31Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] As a lifelong and contented atheist, my main (in fact, my only) real beef with atheism is that I feel it provides insufficient spiritual scope for gratitude and veneration. I’m deeply satisfied with materialist cosmology and rationalism as a way of looking at the universe. But sometimes you just wanna praise the…the…well, the something, y’know? Still, this is a very minor shortcoming compared to what I’d have to put up with if I tried to acquiesce in theistic views that I don’t genuinely believe. So I’ll live with it. [/QUOTE] I know just how you feel. I chalked that up to having been raised Christian, and constantly having to thank God for everything I’d worked my ass off to earn. But there are times when you just want to acknowledge that thing have gone swimmingly well – or at least aren’t as bad as some other poor bastard has it. I also missed the human-to-human communion, the really deep spiritual exchange of we’re-all-in-this-together-ness that church offered. I tried going to some meetings in Fort Collins, over 100 miles and two hours away, but was never really part of “the group.” I think people need that … well, communion, for lack of a better word. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/92 "2007-06-21T17:45:00Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Anyone who thinks that these threads are distorted because people on one side or the other appear to be afraid to respond has not had to wade through these threads. I do not know which “side” has more members, (a number that probably changes from week to week, both in terms of absolute membership and in terms of posters willing to wade into this swamp), but I am pretty sure that neither side has anything resembling a supermajority. [/quote] Yeah, the SDMB is one of the more ideologically balanced places I’ve been. Though I might argue that liberals outnumber conservatives here. I could be wrong on that one though. Again, my point in this debate isn’t that there is a supermajority, only that atheists are as subject to group dynamics as theists. > [@](#): > > The last time someone tried to find out the believer/non-believer representation on the SDMB was, I think, the thread [SDMBer religion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=350436&page=1&pp=50) from a year and a half back. (There may be one more recent, but I do not recall it–and, of course, the poll is hardly scientific, as it is based on who bothers to read **IMHO** , who had an intrerest in reading that thread, and who had an interest in self-reporting their belief status. Right. It’s hard to tell. From a cursory scan of the thread I see no attempts to tabulate the results. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/93 "2007-06-21T17:53:21Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] “I believe God does not exist” asserts that you have a belief. “I do not believe God exists” asserts that you do not have a belief. [/QUOTE] I do not believe that inane semantics are a substitute for discourse (this is a “soft” critique :D) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/94 "2007-06-21T18:04:37Z")
From a nearly three year old (and, hence, even less reliable) thread, [Atheists (34%) + Agnostics (21%) made up barely more than half the respondents](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4973644&highlight=methodology#post4973644). ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/95 "2007-06-21T18:27:32Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] I do not believe that inane semantics are a substitute for discourse (this is a “soft” critique :D) [/QUOTE] Well played, sir! \<\\> ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/96 "2007-06-21T18:57:38Z")
[QUOTE=dennis gallagher] Also I don’t really mean to say that this does not happen in the jewish faith, the Muslim faith, the Mormon faith (although for some reasons I just can’t see a Buddhist doing it) etc. etc. etc… [/QUOTE] It was incredibly common in Buddhist monastaries in medieval Japan. It was pretty much taken for granted that the monks would sleep with young acolytes. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/97 "2007-06-21T19:51:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > “I believe God does not exist” asserts that you have a belief. “I do not believe God exists” asserts that you do not have a belief. I think this is a subtle difference, but one that definitely exists. > [@Pushkin](#): > > “I believe God does not exist” is an assertion that there is nothing to have a belief in, “I do not believe God exists” is an assertion that you do not beleive in a deity. I could say both fit my point of view as an atheist. You’ve misinterpreted the first statement. “I believe God does not exist.” =/= “There isn’t a God for me to believe in.” It’s like the difference between saying, “I don’t agree with your viewpoint because I find your lack of evidence disturbing,” and, “I don’t agree with your viewpoint because I have evidence to the contrary.” Both statements reflect a common underlying point (that is, you don’t agree with their viewpoint), but for two completely different reasons. [QUOTE=Jackmannii] I do not believe that inane semantics are a substitute for discourse (this is a “soft” critique :D) [/QUOTE] Don’t you mean, “I believe that inane semantics are not a substitute for discourse”? 😉 LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/98 "2007-06-21T20:04:58Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] I do not believe that inane semantics are a substitute for discourse (this is a “soft” critique :D) [/QUOTE] I find it remarkable that you brand this… “I believe God does not exist” asserts that you have a belief. “I do not believe God exists” asserts that you do not have a belief… as “inane semantics”. It’s the same semantics as “you agree with me” versus “you do not agree with me”. Since there’s no difference between them as far as you’re concerned, why are you even debating? Based on your quip, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear you say that a number having two square roots is nitpicky, there being no significant difference between +X and -X. “I believe” — “I don’t believe”. They are what we nitpickers call “opposites”. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/99 "2007-06-21T20:13:42Z")
[QUOTE=LilShieste] You’ve misinterpreted the first statement. “I believe God does not exist.” =/= “There isn’t a God for me to believe in.” [/QUOTE] If I believe that God doesn’t exist, then what God does that leave for me to believe in, if you see what I mean? In any case, how does it make two sorts of atheism, hard and soft. Atheist is a word to describe someone who doesn’t believe in any sort of god at all. If that’s because someone just doesn’t want to believe, someone doesn’t see evidence for it and someone else sees evidence against, does it really change that? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777/100 "2007-06-21T20:40:52Z")
[QUOTE=Pushkin] If I believe that God doesn’t exist, then what God does that leave for me to believe in, if you see what I mean? [/quote] What you’re saying makes sense - the logic completely follows. (On re-reading my post, I can see how it was confusing.) [QUOTE=Pushkin] In any case, how does it make two sorts of atheism, hard and soft. Atheist is a word to describe someone who doesn’t believe in any sort of god at all. If that’s because someone just doesn’t want to believe, someone doesn’t see evidence for it and someone else sees evidence against, does it really change that? [/QUOTE] It doesn’t change the underlying point of view at all, IMO. (I’m not necessarily trying to argue for or against the idea of hard/soft atheism - I hadn’t really thought of things like that before reading this thread.) The point **Liberal** was trying to make in post #81 was that there is a difference (albeit a subtle one) between the two statements, “I believe there is no god.” and “I don’t believe in god.” Normally, these types of semantics wouldn’t be a very big deal - but one of the reasons that atheists generally give for not being a Christian, or a follower of any other particular religion, is that there is no reason for them to believe that a god exists. (“I do not believe in god.”) The other statement (“I believe there is no god.”) suggests that the person has some kind of evidence that has lead them to that particular conclusion. IMO, it’s kind of like when you hear someone say, “I don’t _believe_ God exists; I _know_ He does.” A lot of times, this type of statement will draw a lot of criticism from atheists (and even some Christians, like myself), even though it’s really just a matter of semantics. The problem with it is namely that a statement of fact is trying to be argued, without having any evidence to back it up. LilShieste [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-main-beefs-w-atheism/408777.md?page=6)