# What Are Your Personal Opinions About Israel?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196 "2010-03-21T03:10:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/21 "2010-03-21T21:04:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He didn’t suggest that. If anything, he suggested the opposite. . .that “I believe that Camp David, Taba, and the Clinton Bridging Proposal are good goals to shoot for”. Yeah, I thought that was pretty obvious and very clear that I supported peaceful negotiations and clearly said "It seems that, where Middle Eastern politics are concerned, not only is The International Community tm not a very reliable barometer, but that outrage is often selective, and political. " Nor do I see that Elvis has offered a coherent refutation that Arab actions against Arabs are ignored while comparatively lesser Jewish actions against Arabs are blown out of proportion (sometimes complete with entire runs of fake photography and such). If he’d like to give a coherent refutation, then seeing something about annual commemorations of Hama or all the attempts to get the Lebanese to stop shelling the refugee camp… Of course, there aren’t any so it’s an empty denial. But ah well. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/22 "2010-03-21T21:12:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nor do I see that Elvis has offered a coherent refutation It’s more coherent, and more reality-based, than your cherry-picking whine.:dubious: Not to mention more useful than your proposal of “negotiating” with any possibility of actually giving up anything taken off the table beforehand. You need to try addressing points made to you with reason and relevance instead of bombast and dismissal and sidetracking if you want to convince anyone of anything, okay, sport? If Israel’s image in the rest of the world is at a low ebb right now, it isn’t necessarily the rest of the world’s fault, ya know - try digesting that first. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/23 "2010-03-21T21:27:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There’s an inherent contradiction between democracy and favoring a particular religious group, or any particular group for that matter. Israel is completely founded on the Right of Return, at least. As much as I hate the idea of a religious state, or any legislation that privileges one group, that isn’t there to address \*current \*discrimination, the RoR is not going anywhere. Israel is always going to consider itself a Jewish state first and foremost, for various reasons. It’s only realistic to accept that reality, even if you don’t agree with the validity. Any proposal based on dropping all religious favouritism from Israel is just not remotely realistic. And consider that even with the RoR and the like, Israel is still miles more democratic than neighbours like Jordan or Egypt, never mind Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/24 "2010-03-21T21:28:42Z")
> [@figure9](#): > > Well if Israel converted to Islam there wouldn’t be much to fight about. What’s your point? Are you trying to suggest that this is a reasonable demand to make of the Israeli people? ---
**Author:** ![figure9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@figure9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/figure9)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/25 "2010-03-21T22:01:06Z")
[Quote] What’s your point? Are you trying to suggest that this is a reasonable demand to make of the Israeli people? [\Quote] No I am not trying to suggest that this is a reasonable demand to make of Israel. I am just trying to point out that this is as much about religion as territory or human rights. Until both religions can learn to respect each other there is no hope for any solution. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/26 "2010-03-21T22:21:51Z")
> [@figure9](#): > > No I am not trying to suggest that this is a reasonable demand to make of Israel. I am just trying to point out that this is as much about religion as territory or human rights. Until both religions can learn to respect each other there is no hope for any solution. I think the problem Israel has with the Palestinians has a lot less to do with their religion than it does the fact that they keep _shooting rockets_ at them. ---
**Author:** ![figure9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@figure9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/figure9)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/27 "2010-03-21T22:22:10Z")
Double post deleted ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/28 "2010-03-21T23:45:49Z")
just sit tight. Palestinians are incapable of presenting an existential threat, or even a serious damage threat at the present time (what with the fences and all). They should do a better job of preparing for serious war and eventual loss of American support though. Don’t focus on things that hit the TV screens, focus on the real strategic threats. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/29 "2010-03-22T01:18:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Israel is completely founded on the Right of Return, at least. As much as I hate the idea of a religious state, or any legislation that privileges one group, that isn’t there to address \*current \*discrimination, the RoR is not going anywhere. Israel is always going to consider itself a Jewish state first and foremost, for various reasons. It’s only realistic to accept that reality, even if you don’t agree with the validity. Any proposal based on dropping all religious favouritism from Israel is just not remotely realistic. And consider that even with the RoR and the like, Israel is still miles more democratic than neighbours like Jordan or Egypt, never mind Palestine. The RoR is about creating a guaranteed safe-haven for Jews not necessarily about religious favoritism (at least not anything other than that guaranteeing immigration to one group must be favoritism while still allowing just not guaranteeing immigration from other groups). But there are groups that are acting for the cause of religious pluralism in Israel in order to break the control of the Orthodox and the ultra-Orthodox. I’d suggest [ARZA](http://www.arza.org/) for US citizens and [IRAC](http://rac.org/advocacy/irac/) for those who want a more direct influence on Israeli politics. Edit: But if for some the major objection is that Israel will always remain a safe-haven for Jews, then that’s definitely not going to change any time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/30 "2010-03-22T02:54:08Z")
> [@figure9](#): > > Well if Israel converted to Islam there wouldn’t be much to fight about. Seriously if you removed religion from the picture this whole mess would sort itself out. The whole war is based on religious elitism on both sides. Each side feels superior to the other because they have chosen the “right” god. Actually the same god but slightly different mythologies. Until both sides give up on superstition there isn’t much hope. Maybe Israel could hand out copies of “The God Delusion” to its people and the Palestinians. Let us pray to Yahweh and Allah that everyone between the Jordan and the sea should convert en masse to Buddhism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/31 "2010-03-22T03:35:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You need to try addressing points made to you with reason and relevance instead of bombast and dismissal and sidetracking if you want to convince anyone of anything, okay, sport? If Israel’s image in the rest of the world is at a low ebb right now, it isn’t necessarily the rest of the world’s fault, ya know - try digesting that first. You need to quit posting in these Israel related threads if the only thing you intend to “contribute” is your personal dislike for FinnAgain draped in _ad hominem_ attacks against his posting style. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/32 "2010-03-22T03:57:11Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > How is it possible to create a contiguous region including Gaza and the West Bank without creating a non-contiguous Israel? Exchanges of land tracts. That’s why I said “contiguous and **fairly valued**.” Exchanging a square mile of wasteland for a square mile of arable land would not be fair. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/33 "2010-03-22T04:29:09Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Exchanges of land tracts. That’s why I said “contiguous and **fairly valued**.” Exchanging a square mile of wasteland for a square mile of arable land would not be fair. But the Gaza Strip and West Bank are on entirely different sides of the country. There’s no practical way to do a land exchange connecting them that doesn’t cut Israel in half. [Here’s a map of Israel and the territories.](http://www.geographicguide.net/asia/maps/israel-map.jpg) How would you do it? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/34 "2010-03-22T04:30:14Z")
Someone in another thread contributed his impression of Israel as a bully that keeps running to its parent for protection. Not my take, but expanding on the situation in that vein: I see the Israelis and Palestinians as two tough kids on the outs who were supposed to share attached condos in the neighborhood. One kid decided he should have the whole house for himself, and a bunch of other neighborhood kids took his side and ganged up on the remaining kid, who fought back, won the gang war and took over the house. Ever since then the gang keeps sending back the loser to kick the winner in the shins and make life miserable for him. I have given up on the neighborhood association being reasonable and effective enough to settle the dispute, and the winning kid’s Big Brother hasn’t done enough to control the kid’s tendency to give gang members the finger, which start fights up all over again. The neighborhood remains in a periodic uproar, and as one resident I personally don’t care a whole lot who started the fight or whose grievances must constantly be nursed. I just want everyone to settle down so I can get some sleep. The grownups need to start acting like grownups, and give all these delinquents some boots in the ass (and rewards for good behavior) until they grow up too. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/35 "2010-03-22T05:47:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > and as one resident I personally don’t care a whole lot who started the fight or whose grievances must constantly be nursed. I just want everyone to settle down so I can get some sleep. The grownups need to start acting like grownups, and give all these delinquents some boots in the ass (and rewards for good behavior) until they grow up too. Do you in fact live in the disputed territories? ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/36 "2010-03-22T07:26:26Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What this OP IS about, is what do _you_, people of Jewish descent and Israeli defenders, and everyone else that supports their actions, think about _how_ they have conducted themselves? > Do you see any crimes? Is what Israel does always justifiable? Is most everything justifiable in the name of security if you’re Israel? What does Israel do wrong when dealing specifically with its direct neighbors? > > What can Israel do that it hasn’t done already that is reasonable to lessen terrorist attacks? > > Thanks in advance, > > -Steve I am not Jewish or Israeli. I see crimes, none of which have been committed by Israel. I see them attacked for decades for no good reason, I see their enemies being used and exploited to furthuer the Destroy israel bandwagon. Defending their land is always justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/37 "2010-03-22T09:37:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let us pray to Yahweh and Allah that everyone between the Jordan and the sea should convert en masse to Buddhism. Or settle their differences like good Christians… _d&r!_ ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/38 "2010-03-22T09:44:56Z")
Where’s Urban II when you need him?! ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/39 "2010-03-22T09:47:51Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Exchanges of land tracts. That’s why I said “contiguous and **fairly valued**.” Exchanging a square mile of wasteland for a square mile of arable land would not be fair. Gaza can be exchanged for land north of the West Bank, m2 for m2. But you’d need to relocate and re-house 1million+ people. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2010, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196/40 "2010-03-22T10:18:31Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > I see crimes, \*\*none \*\*of which have been committed by Israel. You don’t see much, then. There’s no-one else here who wouldn’t say there haven’t been some mistakes, even crimes, on the part of Israel (or at least, Israelis). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-personal-opinions-about-israel/533196.md?page=3)