# What are your thoughts on my debate with this conservative regarding Trumps sh\*\*thole comment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605 "2018-01-14T16:12:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/21 "2018-01-15T01:15:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > In my experience, Laos (as only one example of many I could name) is proof that the shittiest of shithole countries have some of the most fantastically friendly, generous, and interesting people on the planet. And of course, Trump’s utterance and the defense of it is proof that the best country in the world has some real assholes. I missed the part where Trump was criticizing the people (or in context, those who wish to immigrate here) in these countries, just that the countries themselves were shitholes. And before you bring up the “Mexico is sending their rapists” comment, are you saying that the friendly people you know from Laos are the ones wanting to immigrate here? IOW, in this short thread, we have had many posters here agree that some countries are shitholes, but when Trump says it, it is bad because we all know that we hate Trump and that he is an asshole, so let’s put this one on top of the pile. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/22 "2018-01-15T01:20:32Z")
> [@BloodStalk](#): > > I was arguing with a right winger on twitter … There’s your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/23 "2018-01-15T01:26:14Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I missed the part where Trump was criticizing the people (or in context, those who wish to immigrate here) in these countries, just that the countries themselves were shitholes. ”Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” There is no other possible interpretation than people who come from shithole countries are undesirable. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/24 "2018-01-15T01:53:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > ”Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” > > There is no other possible interpretation than people who come from shithole countries are undesirable. That’s not an exact quote, it’s a Dick Durbin paraphrase. We can’t analyze this hearsay statement that (not that it matters) Trump denies saying. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/25 "2018-01-15T01:57:45Z")
And the even larger problem is how this will harm future negotiations. Imagine if we have a disagreement on something, but we sit down and have a conversation about how to work it out. That’s a good thing, right? But, suppose we can’t work it out, and I want to embarass you by telling the media something you said in a frank discussion with me. Are you going to want to try to work something out with me in the future? Are you going to lay your opinion or comment out there for me if I’m just going to use it against you? No, there won’t even be private, let alone public negotiations because it all gets put on CNN for a cheap political win. The left still can’t understand that this is WHY Trump got elected in the first place! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/26 "2018-01-15T02:05:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The left still can’t understand that this is WHY Trump got elected in the first place! What are you talking about? Donald Trump was elected because CNN put up a comment he made 13 months after the election? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/27 "2018-01-15T02:22:18Z")
While “shithole” is an unpresidential term to use, there are, in fact, some countries that are quite shitty. Haven’t numerous Dopers described North Korea, for instance, in equally blunt language? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/28 "2018-01-15T02:27:06Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I missed the part where Trump was criticizing the people (or in context, those who wish to immigrate here) in these countries, just that the countries themselves were shitholes. He was talking about immigration, not foreign aid. He was talking about whether to let Haitians stay in the US. You know, the ones who left after the earthquake. So don’t pretend it isn’t a racist comment about the people. > [@](#): > > And before you bring up the “Mexico is sending their rapists” comment, are you saying that the friendly people you know from Laos are the ones wanting to immigrate here? In 2015, 35% of black immigrants from Africa - you know, that shithole continent - had a college degree. Which is higher than the percentage of Americans with one. So maybe the are. > [@](#): > > IOW, in this short thread, we have had many posters here agree that some countries are shitholes, but when Trump says it, it is bad because we all know that we hate Trump and that he is an asshole, so let’s put this one on top of the pile. Do you have any idea of what the word diplomacy means? Trump is not sitting in a bar complaining about other countries. He is (unfortunately) the President of the United States. He was in the Oval Office. He has to have some self control. What he is doing is destroying the reputation of the United States throughout the world. Imagine someone competing with the Chinese for a deal in Africa now. Good luck with that. Imagine Trump as the VP of sales of the Acme Corporation. His sales team is trying to close a big deal with S & H Enterprises. It is going well, until Trump posts on Twitter calling the S&H products crap and their CEO a moron. Is that what you want in a president? Because that seems to be what you are supporting. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/29 "2018-01-15T02:28:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > While “shithole” is an unpresidential term to use, there are, in fact, some countries that are quite shitty. Haven’t numerous Dopers described North Korea, for instance, in equally blunt language? Some Dopers are not the President. Some Dopers comments are not covered by all the news media. Get the difference? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/30 "2018-01-15T02:54:57Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I would fire any employee who demonstrated the level of unprofessionalism that Trump has demonstrated since he took office. I don’t see why there should be an exception for the most important job in the country. Yeah…It never ceases to amaze me what Trump apologists will now excuse in the President of the United States…and how much that standard has changed for them from what it was when Obama was President. > [@](#): > > While “shithole” is an unpresidential term to use, there are, in fact, some countries that are quite shitty. In addition to what **Voyager** said, we are back at the point made by **RickJay** and others: The context is very important here. If he had said that the countries were shitholes and we have to do all we can to help people escape from them and make a better life for themselves, that would not have created nearly the uproar of saying they are shitholes and complaining about why we have to take in people from those countries. And, it is not as if these comments were made in a vacuum. There is a pattern here: From the way he continued to insist that the Central Park Five were guilty in the face of compelling evidence otherwise to what he said about the White Supremacist Rally in Charlottesville, there is a pattern that is impossible to deny here. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/31 "2018-01-15T03:01:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > That’s not an exact quote, it’s a Dick Durbin paraphrase. We can’t analyze this hearsay statement that (not that it matters) Trump denies saying. Lindsey Graham, who has golfed with Trump a whole bunch of times, is ignored in your handwaving? Well surprise, surprise, surprise. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/32 "2018-01-15T03:09:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What are you talking about? Donald Trump was elected because CNN put up a comment he made 13 months after the election? Thus a new logical fallacy is born: _Pre_ hoc, ergo propter hoc. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/33 "2018-01-15T03:12:01Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I would just add whether or not Trump or anyone else might subjectively perceive any country as a “shithole” doesn’t mean that residents should not be allowed to immigrate here. One could argue the opposite is true. Exactly this. There is a rather obvious reason why we don’t get more immigrants from awesome countries such as Norway. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/34 "2018-01-15T04:32:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > While “shithole” is an unpresidential term to use, there are, in fact, some countries that are quite shitty. Haven’t numerous Dopers described North Korea, for instance, in equally blunt language? Other have explained the difference better, but I have to add that refugees/defectors from North Korea should be encouraged to do so, especially when they will tell us secrets that we need a lot of nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/35 "2018-01-15T11:32:32Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I missed the part where Trump was criticizing the people (or in context, those who wish to immigrate here) in these countries, just that the countries themselves were shitholes. Wow! “Since 1973.” It’s taking longer than we thought, indeed! > [@UltraVires](#): > > That’s not an exact quote, it’s a Dick Durbin paraphrase. We can’t analyze this hearsay statement that (not that it matters) Trump denies saying. Double wow. @ **UltraVires** — _ **Satisfy my curiosity, please** _. That Trump’s sentence contained the phrase “shithole countries” is no longer in dispute. Please propose an alternate sentence with that phrase that he _might_ have uttered in which the context was NOT to oppose immigration from these countries. Thanks in advance. Should I hold my breath? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/36 "2018-01-15T12:26:31Z")
I agree that culture is not de facto a good thing. Most cultures are sexist, for example. On the other hand, Trump didn’t say that the countries were shitholes, he said that _we don’t want people from shithole countries_. Our country was mostly populated by people from shithole countries (they’ve improved since), by people who wanted a chance to build something better and to be recognized for being honest and hard working, not screwed over by their local kleptocracy. So your friend’s defense had nothing to do with the topic at hand. He changed the topic to something defensible and defended that, to placate you. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/37 "2018-01-15T14:38:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … That Trump’s sentence contained the phrase “shithole countries” is no longer in dispute. … Really? When did that happen? > [@](#): > > [“I’m telling you he did not use that word, George,” Perdue said. “And I’m telling you it’s a gross misrepresentation.”](https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/01/14/gop-senator-perdue-comes-to-trumps-defense-after-s-hole-outcry-questions-durbins-credibility.amp.html) It seemed very much still in dispute yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/38 "2018-01-15T14:51:34Z")
“Elitist Dem voters called my beautiful state ‘flyover country’. They’re ignoring us, that’s why I voted for Trump!” - Trump supporter, paraphrased, 2017 “Why are you so offended when Trump calls it like it is? Those countries \*are \*shitholes!” - Trump supporter, paraphrased, 2018 Honestly, I don’t care what he thinks those countries are like… _privately_. But he’s the voice of our nation. Most of us will never meet anyone from those countries, but they know who Trump is, and that he speaks \*for \*us. He’s making us look rude, uncultured, and ignorant- he’s basically every “ugly American” stereotype. He’s making enemies left and right, and all over the planet. Hell, \*England \*doesn’t want him to come visit. Has he improved US relations with anyone? Who’s going to have our back when things go sideways? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/39 "2018-01-15T15:02:27Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Has he improved US relations with anyone? I think our relationship with Israel is better than it was under Obama. > [@Lightnin](#): > > Who’s going to have our back when things go sideways? I suspect NATO and our other allies will “have our back” pretty much as much as they always have, which is to say, it’s a bit of a mixed bag, but I’m not terribly concerned about it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605/40 "2018-01-15T15:06:09Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > …Honestly, I don’t care what he thinks those countries are like… _privately_. … He did say whatever he said in private. That’s why there’s no video or transcript available to clarify exactly what was said. It’s just Dick Durbin leaking his version of what was said in a private meeting and President Trump’s and others saying he didn’t say that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-my-debate-with-this-conservative-regarding-trumps-sh-thole-comment/806605.md?page=3)