# What are your thoughts on the felony murder rule? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2018, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966 "2018-08-21T13:08:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/81 "2018-08-23T23:46:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s what gibbets are for. I am in qualified agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/82 "2018-08-23T23:53:44Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > . . . And second, someone who’s involvement in the robbery was to drive the car is _probably_ not going to kill anyone if released. Though I would check the evidence on that. Point is, if the _evidence_, not kneejerk ignorant statements like the one you have made (“eye for an eye” is what you said), justifies further imprisonment, then ok. But if it doesn’t, then they should be released. Well, if people tend to do the same thing that they’ve done before, he’d probably offer to drive the car for another robbery. And he’s shown that he has bad judgement when picking people to do crimes with. Now, as he gets older he might decide it’s a bad idea to aid and abet, but I doubt that his judgement is going to improve. I might say he shouldn’t receive a death penalty for driving the car, and I might be okay with him being more likely to get parole sooner, if there’s evidence that he’s gotten older and wiser. But a matching sentence at the beginning? I’ll go with that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/83 "2018-08-24T18:12:39Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > An eye for an eye, eh? No. An eye for an eye would call for execution as the punishment for murder. > [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > The primary goals of punishing criminals should be: > > 1. Deterrence. To make potential criminals think twice about committing crime. > 2. Reformation. To make former criminals into future non-criminal productive members of society. > 3. Societal protection. To keep current criminals away from others to keep the others safe. > > Keeping anyone convicted of a murder locked up for life is ineffective at #1 and #2, and is generally a very damaging and costly way to accomplish #3. > > Making sentences longer doesn’t really help deter people. No one considering committing a crime is thinking “I’m gonna do the one where I get out after 15 years in prison, but not the one with a life sentence.” The reformative value of prison is questionable at best, but if you _never_ let people out, then they can’t ever become productive members of society. I am aware of the basics of penal theory. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/84 "2018-08-25T12:30:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I remember in Arizona a driver in a high-speed chase was charged with felony murder when two media helicopters collided mid-air and someone died. That seems a bit extreme. Googling, it seems that the driver was [not charged](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/07/28/phoenix-news-helicopter-crash-2007/13258413/). > [@](#): > > Christopher Jermaine Jones, the man who led police on a three-hour chase that the four journalists were filming, was sentenced to 25 years in prison in October 2010. > > He pleaded guilty to 35 criminal counts, which included multiple counts of auto theft, criminal damage and aggravated assault. > > Jones was not charged in the newsmen’s deaths after the NTSB determined pilot error caused the collision. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/85 "2018-08-25T14:10:32Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Just a note that people are conflating two different legal principles here. > > Firstly, the Felony Murder rule applies when someone “accidentally” dies during a crime. The shooter claims he didn’t mean to shoot the guy. He thought he loaded the gun with blanks. He dropped the gun and it went off. The law says that such claims don’t matter, he’s still guilty of murder. > > The thing is, this rule is sometimes applied to someone who took no violent actions. There was a case where a policeman responding to a call crashed his car and died. The non-violent perpetrator of the crime was charged with murder one. The justice of that is questionable. > > Secondly, there is the [Joint Enterprise or Common Purpose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_purpose)rule. This says that all participants in a crime are equally guilty, whatever their actual role. The driver and the shooter are equally guilty. > > It appears to me, Skald, that you are mostly talking about the second of these. IANAL, but this does not seem to be the distinction according to the Wikipedia articles. > **[Felony murder rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule)** > > Note: Varies by jurisdiction > Note: Varies by jurisdiction > The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when someone is killed (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder. > The concept of felony murder originates in the rule of transferred intent, wh... > [@](#): > > The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when an offender kills (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), the offender, and also the offender’s accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder… > In most jurisdictions, to qualify as an underlying offense for a felony murder charge, the underlying offense must present a foreseeable danger to life, and the link between the offense and the death must not be too remote… > Critics of the felony murder rule argue that the rule is unjust because it requires no intent to kill. For example, 20-year-old Florida resident Ryan Holle was convicted of first-degree murder for lending his car to a friend, who used the car in a burglary during which a murder was committed… You are correct that the principle of Felony Murder is that there need be no explicit intent to kill, provided that death was a reasonably forseeable outcome of the crime that was committed; and that the principle has been controversially extended to encompass peripheral associated deaths, such as a pursuing police officer crashing his car and dying. But Felony Murder thus also encompasses the principle that has been (sometimes controversially) to convict people peripherally connected to the commission of the crime, such as getaway drivers - or the more controversial example quoted above. I’m not sure whether the principle of Common Purpose would be sufficient in some of these cases? There was a recent case in Oklahoma where a resident killed three intruders in self defense. Somewhat counterintuitively, the getaway driver (Elizabeth Marie Rodrigue) has been charged with Felony Murder even though the only people who died where her co-conspirators. > **[Hearing delayed for getaway-driver suspect in triple-fatal Wagoner County...](https://tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/hearing-delayed-for-getaway-driver-suspect-in-triple-fatal-wagoner/article_c4a96234-78d8-56bf-a50f-880001c6d02d.html)** > > Elizabeth Marie Rodriguez, 22, has been charged with three counts of first-degree murder, one count of first-degree burglary and one count of second-degree burglary.Autopsy reveals drugs in two of three ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/86 "2018-08-25T16:54:09Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But Felony Murder thus also encompasses the principle that has been (sometimes controversially) to convict people peripherally connected to the commission of the crime, such as getaway drivers … No, you misunderstand a point here. The felony murder rule makes the shooter guilty of murder. The joint enterprise rule makes the driver equally guilty. To understand the distinction, consider these two situations. First of all, consider a case where it is a hit, not a robbery. Driver and gunman went there with the direct intention of killing somebody. The felony murder rule does not apply, it’s murder full stop. The driver is equally guilty as the shooter, under the joint enterprise rule. Secondly, consider an armed robbery where nobody gets shot. The crime is armed robbery, no murder took place. The felony murder rule does not apply. The driver is equally guilty of the crime of armed robbery under the joint enterprise rule. See the difference? Now, in the case described by Skald, both rules apply. It is felony murder AND joint enterprise. But his question appears to be more about the latter. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/87 "2018-08-25T16:58:16Z")
Let’s change the hypothetical slightly: Isaac’s buddy(s) invite him out for a “night on the town,” knowing Isaac’s the only one of them with a car. While heading to the club, one of Isaac’s friends says, “Hey, pull into this store up ahead; I need smokes and shit. Go ahead and fill up, bro, I’ll take care of it inside for ya.” Isaac does so, and starts filling up his car (mildly pleased that at least one of his bros kicked in for some gas), while his buddies go into the store. He then hears gunfire, and sees his buddies running out of the store. They all pile in and Isaac burns rubber getting out of there, not knowing precisely what the hell is going on, but just wanting to get away from the proximity of gunfire. Later we find out one or more of his buddies planned the robbery all along, Isaac being duped into being the unknowing, unwitting getaway driver by his duplicitous “friends.” What’s Isaac’s criminal culpability here? This is actually not all that hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/88 "2018-08-25T17:09:36Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > No, you misunderstand a point here. > > The felony murder rule makes the shooter guilty of murder. > The joint enterprise rule makes the driver equally guilty. No, I understand the distinction you’re drawing here. I’m just not convinced that it’s quite accurate to say that these are separate principles. It appears to me that Felony Murder has be used not only to bring a murder charge where there was no explicit intent to kill; but also to charge people more peripherally involved in the crime than the principle of joint enterprise would allow. Although not, perhaps, in the case described by Skald. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/89 "2018-08-25T17:17:53Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Let’s change the hypothetical slightly: > > Isaac’s buddy(s) invite him out for a “night on the town,” knowing Isaac’s the only one of them with a car. [snip] > Later we find out one or more of his buddies planned the robbery all along, Isaac being duped into being the unknowing, unwitting getaway driver by his duplicitous “friends.” > What’s Isaac’s criminal culpability here? None at all. But he might have a hard job proving it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/90 "2018-08-25T18:45:10Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Let’s change the hypothetical slightly: There is no hypothetical to change. Except that I changed Isaac’s name, the situation in the OP is real. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/91 "2018-08-25T22:27:36Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t think I agree with you. Fleeing in a car creates a huge and obviously foreseeable risk for other road users, so we want an extremely strong deterrent. Setting a precedent that a fleeing driver is always held responsible for _any_ peripheral consequences seems like a good one. Yup, right on. If you race past my house in your getaway car, and it spooks my cat into hiding in my sock drawer, they you sure as heck are gonna be held accountable for the child support resulting from that punctured condom. . Just how many levels of indirection are allowed, in spreading the guilt, hmmm? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/92 "2018-08-25T23:53:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I have a cousin, “Isaac,” about the same ages me, who has been in jail since we were 25 and will probably die there. The reason is pretty stupid. When we were young, Isaac needed money to impress some girl and so agreed to be the getaway driver in a robbery; He insists that he only agreed to drive the car and was not armed, and it is verifiable that he did not enter the convenient store in question. Things went south. One of the other robbers — who, unlike Isaac, actually went inside the store — shot the clerk on duty. The man died. Soon Isaac and his two cohorts were arrested and although only one shot was fired, all three were convicted of murder. And thus Isaac has spent the last quarter century in prison. I think it’s just. So basically he was only there to help them get away with it. > [@ExTank](#): > > Isaac’s buddy(s) invite him out for a “night on the town,” knowing Isaac’s the only one of them with a car. [snip] > Later we find out one or more of his buddies planned the robbery all along, Isaac being duped into being the unknowing, unwitting getaway driver by his duplicitous “friends.” > > What’s Isaac’s criminal culpability here? Did Isaac immediately drive them to a police station? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/93 "2018-08-26T06:00:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > There is no hypothetical to change. Except that I changed Isaac’s name, the situation in the OP is real. My apologies; I did read the OP, and many of the comments, such that by the time I posted it had slipped from my mind that we weren’t entertaining a Skaldian Dilemma. > [@msmith537](#): > > Did Isaac immediately drive them to a police station? No; scared out of his wits, he played along, drove them to the club, dropped them off near the door, said he was going to go find a parking spot, dialed 911 and essentially turned himself in. It was a bit touch-and-go legally for him, but the DA was a human being, “Jacob” cooperated, had a clean record, a good lawyer, and video clearly showed he never left the gas pumps to enter the store. His “friends” still tried to implicate him though, said he was in on it all along, but it didn’t wash, as the “friends” gave multiple contradictory accounts and statements to the point that if they said that grass was green and the sky was blue, the police would be consulting an official Sherwin-Williams color chart to verify their claim. Still, “Jacob” (the son of a friend; when he was younger, I was content to call him a nephew, but we’d grown apart by the time this crap came down, and I got a lot of info second- or even third-hand) had a serious wake-up call on the importance of choosing friends, even acquaintances, with care, as well as how easy it can be to get entangled with the law. But under the rule of law, and given the story and events as it was related to me, I’m supposing that he might have been charged with accessory to armed robbery, accessory to aggravated assault/attempted murder, criminal facilitation, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/94 "2018-08-26T09:36:22Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > What about someone who hires a hitman to murder a third party? Should they get a lesser sentence than that of the hitman? After all, their role in the murder was much less than that of the actual shooter. > > Should Isaac also have gotten a light sentence for his role in the robbery? Perhaps no sentence at all? After all, he didn’t really participate in the robbery, did he? He was just waiting outside to drive his friends away after the robbery was all done. That’s not the same. The hitman has specific intent to get someone murdered. Isaac did not. Now, if Isaac had been driving his buddies to a murder job, then he should get a stiffer penalty, but still not the same as the outright trigger-puller. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/95 "2018-08-27T17:15:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I am aware of the basics of penal theory. And disregard it in the case of murder because…? ---
**Author:** ![Textual\_Innuendo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@Textual\_Innuendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Textual_Innuendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/96 "2018-09-01T16:32:56Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Frankly, it’s bullshit. The posters in here in favor of it are basically just taking the position of “fuck criminals, more punishment is always better”. This is just an example of an arbitrary and capricious system of ‘justice’. Well, I feel I need to voice my minority opinion and back SamuelA up: **this,** despite everyone’s protests to the contrary. Wanting to ruin somebody’s life forevermore just because they committed a crime when young and dumb, and somebody who was also involved and even dumber killed somebody, isn’t justice. That’s pretty much the maximum-culpability theoretical extreme, and I don’t think even THAT’S justice. When you take into account the fact that in practice, this is mostly used to give prosecutors more “tough on crime” murder convictions, to let them tack murder charges onto any situation where a cop gets trigger happy, and to railroad poor people into life sentences in our already world-toppingly over-sentenced and overcrowded prison system, it’s a farce. Everyone here sounds like fussy old bourgeois white people whose only contacts with the criminal justice system have been calling the police to report suspicious people in their suburban mcmansion neighborhood. I know that’s not true for Skald or everyone here (although it’s certainly true in the aggregate for the Dope if you read the “what’s your marketing segment” thread), but that’s the spirit of the responses I’m reading here. “Well he was dumb enough to hang out with shady people in his teens / twenties, so he CHOSE to take part in that murder he didn’t plan, witness, or have any control over. Don’t like the time, don’t do the crime!” In practice, this has almost universal negatives and zero deterrent effect. All it serves to do is swell our permanent underclass, soak taxpayers who are now on the hook to pay $32k a year per prisoner for every year for the rest of their lives, and enrich some private prison owners. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/97 "2018-09-01T17:17:36Z")
> [@Textual\_Innuendo](#): > > … All it serves to do is swell our permanent underclass, soak taxpayers who are now on the hook to pay $32k a year per prisoner for every year for the rest of their lives, and enrich some private prison owners. No-one here is saying the criminal justice system is uniformly more just than criminal. Some people just think the rule is reasonable or practical. I really, really wish young people did not do stupid things and ruin their entire lives, but sometimes they do. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/98 "2018-09-01T17:55:44Z")
Did Isaac know that Julie and Gopher were planning to rob the clerk? Did Doc have a gun on him? If the answers were yes and no, respectively, Isaac was just as much of the “Princess Gang” as the big boss Stubing. As I recall, Charles Manson didn’t stab anyone. He didn’t even go out on the murder runs. And yet he was held just as culpable as the actual perps. StG ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/99 "2018-09-01T18:01:08Z")
The OP describes a case where a get away driver had knowledge that the robbers were armed, intended to use their weapons to conduct the robbery, and should have known that a murder was a possible result of the crime, and yet voluntarily participated. That is probably a common type of case where felony murder is applied and I think many responses have been addressing that situation. A thread describing a case where a get away driver did not know that his associates were armed, or unaware that armed robbery was planned, perhaps unaware that any serious crime was intended might elicit different responses. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966/100 "2018-09-01T21:43:27Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > And disregard it in the case of murder because…? I don’t disregard it. But it’s a subject I happen to know a great deal about. So when I find myself in disagreement with somebody on this subject, I generally conclude that my opinion is better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-felony-murder-rule/819966.md?page=4)