# What are your thoughts regarding Carlos Castaneda? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571 "2005-10-03T13:56:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GrahamWellington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/54ee81/32.png) [@GrahamWellington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrahamWellington)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/61 "2005-10-06T15:46:25Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Seriously, though, you’re sounding a bit mystical. Do you think this book was written as a communication to you, or as a warning, or is the analogy simply that of times and places? I’ve had a very mystical life. But to get into it would be to get ahead of ourselves. The main reason why I haven’t given up in my efforts to MAKE THINGS KNOWN (not entertain) is because of the shear vastness of what’s going on as well as the cruelty at the heart of it all. I can understand your concern about the possibility of being jerked around, for sure. But all I can say – with 100% certainty – is that whomever takes a chance by spending a little money and taking the time and effort to FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER (I put that in capitals because someone balked at me saying that the first time I said it, and so I want there to be NO misunderstanding about the important need do things _exactly_ the way I say) will have their world rocked to the core!!! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/62 "2005-10-06T15:48:00Z")
**Graham** , I’ve followed your instructions to the letter. I got _Michelle Remembers_ from the library and read it cover to cover. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![GrahamWellington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/54ee81/32.png) [@GrahamWellington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrahamWellington)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/63 "2005-10-06T16:07:04Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Graham** , don’t bother giving us the website where we can hear the woman’s interview. Just give us her name. > > As for thinking that your predictions that we will “beg for [you] to make disclosures!” is egotistical, can you tell me why we **shouldn’t** think that? > > Surely you’re aware that there are a lot of people in the world making blatantly false claims. Surely you’re aware that if we are to follow up on every one of these claims, we’ll have no time left. What sort of test do you propose we follow for deciding which claims deserve follow-up? > > I’ve got such a test for myself, but I’m wondering what test you propose. > > Daniel There’s no question you’d be taking a chance. But honesly, I am only interested in working with and directing people that aren’t afraid to take a chance in life now and then. People that are smart and sincere are the only ones I want to work with. All of this that I intend to point out via dot-connecting is VERY VERY strange and out of the ordinary. It’s non linear as it gets. BUT, if one does go along with me AND FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER, they’ll certainly see things that have so concerned me for so long and, I should think, a person trusting me will have a deeper appreciation for those of us that sometimes think outside the box. Also, know this: There’s a locus. And it’s (morally and spiritually speaking) blacker than black! This is about a satanic conspiracy going on … and so I can’t stress enough (and I should have earlier) that it’s all very dangerous, and wicked things are involved, sad to say. Sooooooo if one doesn’t have the stomach and is given to bouts of anxiety, then one should skip my offer of MAKING THINGS KNOWN. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/64 "2005-10-06T16:09:43Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > Expano – > > That’s gotta be some good weed you’re smoking, why else would you not understand that I AM supplying proof/evidence by getting the ball rolling by making it known that my disclosure starts with Michelle Remembers. Saying “read this book” is not supplying evidence. Listing and explaining the various facts you claim to be in Michelle Remembers and citing it as a source would be supplying evidence. **Terifel** ’s thread on collossal squid is a textbook example of how to provide evidence and present an argument. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334885&](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334885&) > [@](#): > > Why is it so hard for you to understand me when I say that in order for me to make things clear that it MR HAS to be read and in one’s hand … and THEN we begin a process of connecting the dots. Because that makes no sense. I’d never read most of **Terifel** ’s cited articles and interviews. But, by citing various excerpts from them and others, he utterly convinced me of his case. It was not necessary for me to read through all his cites, let alone have them in hand. Why would it be necessary with Michelle Remembers? Why can’t you just present your argument, inserting cites where necessary? If you want to compare something on page fifty three with something on page two hundred and eight, why can’t you just post the two relevant passages? ---
**Author:** ![GrahamWellington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/54ee81/32.png) [@GrahamWellington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrahamWellington)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/65 "2005-10-06T16:13:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Graham** , I’ve followed your instructions to the letter. I got _Michelle Remembers_ from the library and read it cover to cover. Now what? I want you to prove to me that you’re on the up and up. So please tell me some things about “the lady from Vancouver”? I’m going to bed now but will read your comments later. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/66 "2005-10-06T16:17:11Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > I want you to prove to me that you’re on the up and up. So please tell me some things about “the lady from Vancouver”? > > I’m going to bed now but will read your comments later. Good luck **DtC** your path is boring but it is lengthy. May you pass all the tests that are before you. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/67 "2005-10-06T16:27:07Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > All of this that I intend to point out via dot-connecting is VERY VERY strange and out of the ordinary. It’s non linear as it gets. BUT, if one does go along with me AND FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER, they’ll certainly see things that have so concerned me for so long . . . > > Also, know this: There’s a locus. And it’s (morally and spiritually speaking) blacker than black! . . . > > This is about a satanic conspiracy going on … and so I can’t stress enough (and I should have earlier) that it’s all very dangerous, and wicked things are involved, sad to say. Hijack I was putting my pill bottles back in the silverware drawer after a psychiatrist appointment yesterday. I’ve often wondered what would happen to me if I (G-d forbid) couldn’t get my pills, or if (G-d forbid) they stopped working. I had been in the middle of answering my e-mail and had several windows showing SDMB threads. For the first time, I wondered what would happen to my posting and how others would react. It’s possible that after a few weeks, my posts would change to ranting and raving without logic of any kind. Initially, people would certainly think it was satire or a very dry joke. Some would play along by posting rants of their own. I wonder how they would treat me once they realized that I was genuinely ill? I hope that they would put aside their usual razor tongues and great debating skills and treat me with compassion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/68 "2005-10-06T16:46:26Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > I want you to prove to me that you’re on the up and up. So please tell me some things about “the lady from Vancouver”? > > I’m going to bed now but will read your comments later. She’s supposedly a “possed” woman from Vancouver who comes to visit the cult while poor little 5 year old Michelle is locked up in a chicken cage full of snakes. Michelle describes her thusly: > [@](#): > > She was just trying to make friends when she first came. Like one minute she’s talking to me like I’m a nice little kid, and the next minute she’s this ugly thing. She just turned her head around and looked back at me and changed her face. It was the same face I saw in the car that night. It’s eyes looked like they go way back and stick way out at the same time. Everything about it’s unclean. It’s nostrils are much bigger than they should be, and it has an ugly mouth. She has this long tongue that can go way out, like a snake’s tongue. She’s saying really disgusting things but they’re all in a different language. She drools a lot and her head starts to go all funny and spins around, I think Michelle has seen _The Exorcist_. Michelle then claims that the devil lady took her out of the cage, tongue kissed her, put snakes on her and then the whole cult chops up a fetus, rubs the parts all over her and locks her in a hollow statue of Satan with more snakes. As everyone can see, it’s all _ver_ believable. Now what? I just want to say up front that I’m not about to go running to any phone booths. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/69 "2005-10-06T17:38:33Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > There’s no question you’d be taking a chance. But honesly, I am only interested in working with and directing people that aren’t afraid to take a chance in life now and then. People that are smart and sincere are the only ones I want to work with. First, thanks for using the quote tags. It makes your posts easier to follow. Second, I do take chances. I’ve quit a solid, unexciting career recently so that I could go back to school and get my elementary school license. My hand is scarred from where I once was running interference in the woods, putting my body in between loggers and the trees they were trying to cut down. I’ve gone to jail for things I believe in. Third, I think it’s fair to say that I’m smart. I maintain a 4.0 in school; I always scored in the 99th percentile on standardized tests. I’ve won contests with my writing, and I’ve convinced people, using only logical arguments, to change their minds on fundamental issues. Fourth, I am sincere. This one is more difficult to justify–if I’m not sincere, then this paragraph and the preceding ones are false–but you might justify it by looking into the claims I’ve made earlier about Castaneda. If you find that those claims are accurate, that will give you at least some evidence of my sincerity. To sum up: you’re only interested in working with people that are smart and sincere and aren’t afraid to take a chance. I qualify under your criteria. But the question wasn’t whether I qualify under your criteria. The question was whether you qualify under mine. Why should a smart, sincere guy like myself take a chance on you? Your claims that you’ll rock my world are absolutely unconvincing; my only experience with you so far is that you are credulous enough to be taken in by a fraudster like Castaneda. By what criteria should I evaluate your claims? Repeating the claims does not constitute criteria. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/70 "2005-10-06T20:41:17Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > I thought it very strange that someone would go through that kind of effort … and it made me wonder if his whole intent was to keep certain stuff from being seriously considered by the general public, stuff that Castaneda was making known. Of course, another perfectly logical explanation is that they are going through “that kind of effort” to, you know, FIGHT IGNORANCE. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/71 "2005-10-06T22:40:50Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I wonder how they would treat me once they realized that I was genuinely ill? I hope that they would put aside their usual razor tongues and great debating skills and treat me with compassion. **Doc** , this is a great question and point, and I’m asking you very seriously: what would constitute compassion in such a case? Would ignoring your posts constitute compassion? Advising you to start taking your medications? Confronting you on your behavior and pointing out that it signified that you were off-kilter and needed to look after yourself? I really don’t know, and I wonder if you could shed some light on that question. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/72 "2005-10-06T23:06:43Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Doc** , this is a great question and point, and I’m asking you very seriously: what would constitute compassion in such a case? Would ignoring your posts constitute compassion? Ignoring things would just make it worse. Once people see that there is a problem, the right thing to do is to find out how severe it is. Is my ranting still confined to one area? Do I turn any thread into the same old rant? Or are things so bad that I rave on any subject? > [@](#): > > Advising you to start taking your medications? If phrased properly, yes. You need to make it clear that you’re not making some variation on the “You’re off your meds, aren’t you?” insult. Questions about whether I can still get medication, whether I’ve decided to stop taking it, or changed to a new medication are all apropriate. > [@](#): > > Confronting you on your behavior and pointing out that it signified that you were off-kilter and needed to look after yourself? If I haven’t become completely irrational, this might work. Various arguments about the current state of cybernetics, government funding, and such might help me realize that the CIA has not deployed cyborgs in all the neighborhood stores as part of their ongoing surveilance of my life. Even if I have gone completely round the bend, people could still make my life easier by convincing me to bathe, wear a mind-ray blocking device that is not conspicuos, and in other ways try to alter the ways I act without tackling what I think. If I stand smelly and dishevelled on the corner and rant about cyborgs, I’ll have a much worse life than if staple well-composed flyers about the cyborg menace to telephone polls and buletin boards. ---
**Author:** ![GrahamWellington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/54ee81/32.png) [@GrahamWellington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrahamWellington)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/73 "2005-10-07T15:04:04Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > “Making things knowwn” isn’t proving something, it is merely advertising it. Prove is a relative thing. What’s one person’s “proof” is anothers “evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![GrahamWellington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/54ee81/32.png) [@GrahamWellington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrahamWellington)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/74 "2005-10-07T15:08:37Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Saying “read this book” is not supplying evidence. Listing and explaining the various facts you claim to be in Michelle Remembers and citing it as a source would be supplying evidence. > > **Terifel** ’s thread on collossal squid is a textbook example of how to provide evidence and present an argument. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334885&](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334885&) > > Because that makes no sense. I’d never read most of **Terifel** ’s cited articles and interviews. But, by citing various excerpts from them and others, he utterly convinced me of his case. It was not necessary for me to read through all his cites, let alone have them in hand. > > Why would it be necessary with Michelle Remembers? Why can’t you just present your argument, inserting cites where necessary? If you want to compare something on page fifty three with something on page two hundred and eight, why can’t you just post the two relevant passages? You want me to argue, I want to lay things out. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/75 "2005-10-07T15:08:48Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > Prove is a relative thing. What’s one person’s “proof” is anothers “evidence.” With respect, **Graham** , you’ve offered nothing that fits my criteria for proof or evidence; nor have you given me a reason to spend a lot of time reading a book on the off-chance that I’l eventually get proof or revidence. **Diogenes** , a man with more patience or free time than myself, has clearly taken the risk that you do have some persuasive evidence that you’ve not yet offered. He’s done what you asked him to do. Don’t you owe it to him to provide your evidence? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/76 "2005-10-07T15:19:48Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > You want me to argue, I want to lay things out. Well, **Dio** has answered your test question. Shouldn’t you be laying things out for him? ---
**Author:** ![GrahamWellington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/54ee81/32.png) [@GrahamWellington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrahamWellington)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/77 "2005-10-07T15:33:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > She’s supposedly a “possed” woman from Vancouver who comes to visit the cult while poor little 5 year old Michelle is locked up in a chicken cage full of snakes. Michelle describes her thusly: > > I think Michelle has seen _The Exorcist_. > > Michelle then claims that the devil lady took her out of the cage, tongue kissed her, put snakes on her and then the whole cult chops up a fetus, rubs the parts all over her and locks her in a hollow statue of Satan with more snakes. As everyone can see, it’s all _ver_ believable. > > Now what? I just want to say up front that I’m not about to go running to any phone booths. The lady that’s a carbon copy of the one described here once said in an interview several years ago (when asked by the person interviewing her if she ever had problems dressing the way she did), “No. I have the ability to give a certain look.” I have every reason to believe she can do what this woman in Michelle R. did. When I was around 4-yrs-old I was taken away for a period of (I’m guessing) a weekend. I was then dropped off at my home and, while everyone around me went about their business, not even acknowledging me, I thought to myself, “How strange. I was away and I have no idea where I was or what it was about. But it had something to do with witches … and whatever it was, whatever I saw, it was very bad.” And then in 1980 this book MR came out … and I was struck by the fact that this lady also had something happen to her the way I did. And, too, I was also struck by the fact that in the book there are many references to strange things that were very similar to the kinds of things I had happen to me throughout my life. (More on those later, as the sleeping/allergy pill is starting to kick in.) Okay, great that you seem to be on the up and up! Now… please get a copy of “The Doors” movie. I want to reference some specific things in it, and which tie into MR. Thanks!! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/78 "2005-10-07T15:40:49Z")
I’ve seen the Doors movie several times, including twice in the theater. I’m quite familiar with the film. What have you got? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/79 "2005-10-07T15:41:15Z")
> [@GrahamWellington](#): > > Now… please get a copy of “The Doors” movie. I want to reference some specific things in it, and which tie into MR. Thanks!! This should be fun. Am I allowed to pull up a lawn chair in CS? ---
**Author:** ![GrahamWellington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/54ee81/32.png) [@GrahamWellington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrahamWellington)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571/80 "2005-10-07T15:51:22Z")
I haven’t reread my comments posted about Castaneda, BUT, if I’m not mistaken, there’s no place that I said I believe that the books he wrote are 100% true. And yet you keep making comments to the effect that I did say or imply such. Would you care to point them out if I’m in error about this? Also, in keeping with this question of clairity … if you look at this tread, you’ll notice that I never invited you to go along with me on this journey of getting a copy of MR and connecting dots. My original offer was to someone else … but you came along and acted like I was including you (or asking you exclusively) but such was not the case. But instead of rubbing your nose in your assumption, I just did the nice guy thing and didn’t make an issue of it. But now you ask for me to prove my worthiness of you and your time?? I wish you no disrespect, but, in view of your unrelenting concern of me wasting your time and all, I think it’s best if you don’t participate in what I’m offering. Take care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-are-your-thoughts-regarding-carlos-castaneda/324571.md?page=5)