# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/221 "2024-04-15T17:33:53Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Like I said, two realms which are known in completely different ways. Cannot use the processes of one to understand the other. But here I just run into the argument, ‘but there is only one method of understanding!’ > > All I can say it, no, there isn’t. And that’s where it stops. But how can you determine that the spiritual is real enough to know by any method of understanding, versus a construct of our physical minds? Sure there are many ways of understanding, but much of our understanding is wrong. Science is all about testing to see if your idea is correct or not. The way to get to an idea varies from purely logical deductions from observations to dreams. All of those are valid ways of constructing a hypothesis - but none guarantee a true hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/222 "2024-04-15T18:00:30Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Like I said, two realms which are known in completely different ways. Cannot use the processes of one to understand the other. But here I just run into the argument, ‘but there is only one method of understanding!’ > > All I can say it, no, there isn’t. And that’s where it stops. I would say that is where you stopped looking because that particular explanation made you happy, but science is not about what it is that makes you happy so you reject it. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/223 "2024-04-15T19:58:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I would say that is where you stopped looking because that particular explanation made you happy, but science is not about what it is that makes you happy so you reject it. Really my emotions have nothing to do with it. Or anyone’s emotions. But I guess I’ve gotten tired of speaking this alien language to you all. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/224 "2024-04-15T20:01:59Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > But I guess I’ve gotten tired of speaking this alien language to you all. Man, it really is, to me anyway. I have no idea what you really mean by “the Divine”, I’ve never experienced that kind of thing at all. If this is meant as an argument to convince me (as per the OP), it’s not that effective. Speaking of the OP, I feel ghosted. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/225 "2024-04-15T20:06:51Z")
Maybe translating it first would have helped. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/226 "2024-04-15T20:13:27Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Yeah, someday, God will forgive all those amputees He refuses to heal for some reason. It was alleged that Paul had missed out on all the miracles. Whether or not he did, those were some of those he professed to have experience of. Feel free to Pit God, there’s a forum for that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/227 "2024-04-15T20:19:25Z")
What about pitting the concept of certain gods? Is it a pitting if what is being discussed is an idea? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/228 "2024-04-15T20:24:32Z")
You used to be a mod, you tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/229 "2024-04-15T20:25:50Z")
I haven’t been a mod for a long time and I am not about to junior mod here. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/230 "2024-04-15T23:27:48Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I guess I’ve gotten tired of speaking this alien language to you all. Not entirely alien. I think I know what you mean; but I can’t think of a good way to phrase it, at least right now. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/231 "2024-04-15T23:42:14Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > If this is meant as an argument to convince me (as per the OP), it’s not that effective. Nope. Not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just sticking my oar in as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/232 "2024-04-15T23:43:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Maybe translating it first would have helped. There isn’t one available. If there was, what a different world we would have. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/233 "2024-04-15T23:56:50Z")
Well don’t that just say it all. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/234 "2024-04-16T00:01:43Z")
Moderating: > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well don’t that just say it all. I’m not entirely sure what’s intended by making this comment, but it’s starting to feel quite personal. Let’s dial it back, please. All the best, Actual Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/235 "2024-04-16T00:10:30Z")
What is the purpose of bringing up terms you are certain we won’t understand and which you refuse to explain? Could you at the very least point to a website that might guide us? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/236 "2024-04-16T03:28:42Z")
No, Huitzilopochtli never existed more than any other god has. And I see no reason to believe the old argument that religion is somehow a “different way of knowing”, as opposed to a baseless assertion. A baseless assertion that the believers insist on forcing onto other people whether they want it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/237 "2024-04-16T12:40:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, Huitzilopochtli never existed more than any other god has. And I see no reason to believe the old argument that religion is somehow a “different way of knowing”, as opposed to a baseless assertion. A baseless assertion that the believers insist on forcing onto other people whether they want it or not Huitzilopochtli exists in the same way Yahweh or Thor or Ganesha does; for that matter, as do Hamlet, Frodo Baggins, and Homer Simpson. I have no doubt that @Ulfreida has a subjective experience of something she describes as “the Divine”, but since that experience is ineffable and incommunicable, to the rest of us it’s functionally fictional. (The Divine, I mean; @Ulfreida’s word is sufficient evidence to me that she actually has this experience.) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/238 "2024-04-16T13:18:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is the purpose of bringing up terms you are certain we won’t understand and which you refuse to explain? Could you at the very least point to a website that might guide us? I’m not refusing to explain them, I just CANNOT in your terms. You might read some books. I recommend the Tao Te Ching (Taoist) to start with. Also the poetry of Rumi (Sufi), the Cloud of Unknowing (Christian), and there are thousands of others. All religions contain this quality, although it is always a minority of people who find their way to it. And I use the word ‘contain’ purposely – it is part of the role of religion to frame and control mystical experience, which always tends escape boundaries and is hence inherently dangerous. Earlier cultures created social roles for people like this – “shaman” is one word for them. Dismissing this experience, which is common to (although never common in) every culture I can think of back into prehistory, as childish nonsense, is in my view part of the sickness of modernity. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/239 "2024-04-16T13:41:50Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Dismissing this experience, which is common to (although never common in) every culture I can think of back into prehistory, as childish nonsense, is in my view part of the sickness of modernity Dreams, tales, poetry, jokes, and idle fancies are also common to every culture back to prehistory. That doesn’t mean that they have any objective existence outside the minds of those creating or experiencing them. I don’t think anyone in this thread has dismissed mysticism as childish nonsense; just dismissed the notion that it can be used to convince others of the existence of God. Which you yourself admit. The burning question of this thread is, what arguments can be used to convince others of the existence of @philipdalton, or that he’ll ever return to his thread to discuss it? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/240 "2024-04-16T14:07:07Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Dismissing this experience, which is common to (although never common in) every culture I can think of back into prehistory, as childish nonsense, is in my view part of the sickness of modernity. You know what else was common to (and common in) every premodern culture I can think of back into prehistory? Infant mortality. Starvation. Death by infection. A million and one mortal threats that modernity has made trivial. Modernity isn’t a sickness; it is a cure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=13)