# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Bayarea4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Bayarea4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bayarea4)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/301 "2024-04-18T07:37:24Z")
This makes sense to me. We humans may be the most intelligent species on the planet. We may be able to understand lot of things about the world we live in. But to know how the universe was created may be like trying to teach algebra to a golden retriever. A dog’s brain is not capable of getting it. Maybe our human brains aren’t big enough to get it, either. Maybe religion is just our imperfect attempt to explain the unexplainable. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/302 "2024-04-18T12:35:06Z")
> [@Bayarea4](#): > > Maybe religion is just our imperfect attempt to explain the unexplainable. Imperfect? If it’s unexplainable then any attempt at an explanation must be wrong. Now try telling that to religionists that do not just claim to have explained the unexplainable but claim to know exactly what it is and wants. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/303 "2024-04-18T12:39:22Z")
> [@Bayarea4](#): > > Maybe religion is just our imperfect attempt to explain the unexplainable. I’d say there’s no “maybe” about it. There’s a lot of people who are really uncomfortable with the answer “We don’t know.” Replacing honest ignorance with a religious answer relieves their discomfort, at the cost of believing nonsense. Which wouldn’t be so bad, except that all too often, they then act like their position is the only morally correct position, and try to force everyone else to believe it. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/304 "2024-04-18T12:44:08Z")
> [@Bayarea4](#): > > Maybe our human brains aren’t big enough to get it, either. Maybe religion is just our imperfect attempt to explain the unexplainable. God is forever mysterious and ineffable. Therefore, we should ban abortion. It all makes sense! ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/305 "2024-04-18T14:12:36Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Assuming someone can be convinced of this super being, then convincing them that the Christian God is this super being is relatively easy. Christianity is the religion of “Do whatever you want and go to heaven no matter what.” For one thing: I fail to see the connection between ‘I think this is pleasant’ and ‘I think this is right’. For another, I don’t know what version of Christianity you’re describing, but it sure as Hell ain’t all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/306 "2024-04-18T14:17:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A cow today is the same as a cow 1,000 years ago, or a cow 1,000 years from now, in the sense that cows will always be stuck at the grass-munching level that they are. Cows will never start building houses or farming their own grass or start a cow civilization. Even highly intelligent animals like octupi, ants or crows haven’t created technology or done anything of the sort. Right, and historically that has been a convincing argument. …it shouldn’t be any more, thanks to the theory of evolution, neuroscience and just generally our better understanding of biology. The pile of evidence supporting the idea that we’re animals is a mile high, and the alternative has to find a mile-high’s worth of rationalizations. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/307 "2024-04-18T15:01:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A cow today is the same as a cow 1,000 years ago, or a cow 1,000 years from now, Well, that might\* be true of wild animals, but it’s definitely not true of the vast majority of domestic breeds, cows included. There might be a handful of cow breeds that are that old, but there are far more young breeds, and far more cows _of those_ breeds. \*not for all wild species, certainly. Evolution [can work much faster than we traditionally imagine.](https://global.wustl.edu/lizards-reveal-workings-of-evolution/) ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/308 "2024-04-18T15:21:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Velocity](#): > > > > A cow today is the same as a cow 1,000 years ago, or a cow 1,000 years from now, > > Well, that might\* be true of wild animals, but it’s definitely not true of the vast majority of domestic breeds, cows included. (…) Sheesh, you cut off Velocity’s sentence halfway through. The continuation read: “…in the sense that cows will always be stuck at the grass-munching level that they are. Cows will never start building houses or farming their own grass or start a cow civilization.” ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/309 "2024-04-18T15:22:51Z")
> Christianity is the religion of “Do whatever you want and go to heaven no matter what.” This word, “Christianity”…I don’t think it means what you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/310 "2024-04-18T15:26:03Z")
Velocity’s argument just seems like a special case of “The universe is so incredibly complex that it must have been a product of intelligent design”, just pointing to one particular thing in the universe. And of course that instantly falls to “Well, where did this intelligent designer come from, and what entity designed _it_?” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/311 "2024-04-18T15:28:32Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > It’s even worse than that. As I hinted at before, there’s nothing in the Bible about a rebellion of Satan/Lucifer and other angels, their defeat and downfall into hell, becoming demons. That’s all later fanfic. John Milton has a lot to answer for. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > For one thing: I fail to see the connection between ‘I think this is pleasant’ and ‘I think this is right’. [![](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120715.gif) ](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120715.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/312 "2024-04-18T15:35:35Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Right, and historically that has been a convincing argument. > > …it shouldn’t be any more, thanks to the theory of evolution, neuroscience and just generally our better understanding of biology. The pile of evidence supporting the idea that we’re animals is a mile high, and the alternative has to find a mile-high’s worth of rationalizations. I’m not sure what you mean. Sure, cows may evolve in the sense of their horns getting longer or shorter, or their eyelids changing a bit, but we’re never going to see cows invent a cow version of the Internet, or a cow version of submarines, or see cows build rockets and fly to the Moon. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/313 "2024-04-18T15:36:23Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > > > It’s even worse than that. As I hinted at before, there’s nothing in the Bible about a rebellion of Satan/Lucifer and other angels, their defeat and downfall into hell, becoming demons. That’s all later fanfic. > > John Milton has a lot to answer for. To be fair, Milton’s fanfic is a lot better written than most… ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/314 "2024-04-18T15:40:31Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > > Christianity is the religion of “Do whatever you want and go to heaven no matter what.” > > This word, “Christianity”…I don’t think it means what you think it does. It would help if Christians could agree on what “Christianity” means. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/315 "2024-04-18T15:42:13Z")
Not in our lifetimes, sure. But who knows what they might evolve into in a hundred million years? Admitting that a cow (or ape) can evolve into something fundamentally different violates the “essentialist” idea popular with believers that everything has an unchangeable essence, so a cow will always be a cow and can never become something else, nor can anything else become a cow. But essentialism isn’t how the world actually works, however much believers dislike the fact. Living things are messy and changeable and don’t fit very well into neat boxes. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/316 "2024-04-18T15:47:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not in our lifetimes, sure. But who knows what they might evolve into in a hundred million years? Exactly. Very small rodent-like mammals could evolve into humans, why couldn’t bovines evolve to some other super critters like us, given enough time? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/317 "2024-04-18T15:51:00Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > It would help if Christians could agree on what “Christianity” means. If a billion-plus people could agree on anything, _that_ would be a miracle! Still, there are certainly ideas which are relatively more or less common among Christians, and “everyone goes to heaven no matter what” is squarely in the “less common” group. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/318 "2024-04-18T15:53:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Human or angel, if they were created by an omniscient, omnipotent being then their every actions and thought was chosen by God before they ever existed. It doesn’t need to _make sense,_ they are just acting out a play scripted by God for his own reasons, with as much independent agency as two hand puppets attacking each other. I don’t get this. How is this any more true if they/we were created by an omniscient, omnipotent being than if the Universe was created by the Big Bang? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/319 "2024-04-18T15:55:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Velocity](#): > > > > A cow today is the same as a cow 1,000 years ago, or a cow 1,000 years from now, > > Well, that might\* be true of wild animals, but it’s definitely not true of the vast majority of domestic breeds, cows included. > > There might be a handful of cow breeds that are that old, but there are far more young breeds, and far more cows _of those_ breeds. > > \*not for all wild species, certainly. Evolution [can work much faster than we traditionally imagine.](https://global.wustl.edu/lizards-reveal-workings-of-evolution/) And if you’re only talking about a thousand years – it’s also true of humans. > [@Velocity](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean. Sure, cows may evolve in the sense of their horns getting longer or shorter, or their eyelids changing a bit, but we’re never going to see cows invent a cow version of the Internet, or a cow version of submarines, or see cows build rockets and fly to the Moon. Not so long as they’re cows, certainly. But you wouldn’t have seen the common ancestor of chimps and humans do any of that either. Or a lot of the stages inbetween. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/320 "2024-04-18T15:56:58Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Sheesh, you cut off Velocity’s sentence halfway through. The continuation read: > “…in the sense that cows will always be stuck at the grass-munching level that they are. Cows will never start building houses or farming their own grass or start a cow civilization.” And you know the path that bovine evolution will take over the next few million years, how? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=17)