# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/321 "2024-04-18T15:59:00Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Still, there are certainly ideas which are relatively more or less common among Christians, and “everyone goes to heaven no matter what” is squarely in the “less common” group. Well, firstly it rules out the by far biggest faction of Christianity, the Catholics, who teach that faith _and_ good works get you into Heaven. OTOH, a basic dogma of Protestantism is sola fide, only faith, so isn’t the statement kind of true for a sizeable chunk of Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/322 "2024-04-18T16:01:11Z")
But “You can do evil for most of your life, sincerely seek forgiveness on your deathbed, then get into Heaven” _is_ very common among Christian sects. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/323 "2024-04-18T16:01:28Z")
Not a Protestant, but I assume they would argue that running around blatantly sinning all day proves that someone doesn’t have faith. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/324 "2024-04-18T16:05:14Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > It would help if Christians could agree on what “Christianity” means. Can’t argue with that! ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/325 "2024-04-18T16:05:23Z")
Well, that is true, but it seems like a pretty risky gambit; what if you get hit by a truck? In Judaism, we all get forgiven for everything every Yom Kippur, but those killjoy Rabbis put in a loophole such that we _don’t_ get forgiven if we sinned while consciously thinking “it’s OK, I’ll be forgiven on Yom Kippur”. I imagine the Christians have a similar rule. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/326 "2024-04-18T16:06:43Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Whether something exists or not is an empirical claim, and empirical claims require empirical evidence. It may be the case that there are things that exist that humans do not have evidence for: so be it; until we have good grounds for believing in something we shouldn’t believe in it, even if that means some false negatives. We have no other rational choice. That’s right. I am an ex-Christian atheist. I stopped believing when what I thought to be evidence of God was debunked as fallacious to me. I completely agree that it’s not about “argumentation” but about “evidence”. No amount of philosophising is going convince me that there is any deity. Currently, the evidence is that there is no god and that deity is a human fantasy / construct / delusion. Just for the sake of academic argument, a verifiable miracle would be something I would call evidence. So let’s say that angels would appear, clearly visible, over every house of worship belonging to whatever is the “right” sect on the Sabbath, so on every Sunday if Orthodox / Catholic / mainstream Protestant, on every Friday if Muslim, on every Saturday if Jewish or Seventh-Day Adventist. That would be pretty compelling evidence. Unfortunately for all Abrahamic denominations, that never happens. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/327 "2024-04-18T16:16:59Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Not a Protestant, but I assume they would argue that running around blatantly sinning all day proves that someone doesn’t have faith. Then you should familiarize yourself with the Protestant idea of _Once Saved, Always Saved_. Which, in a nutshell, says that there is no sin one can commit that will change their ‘saved’ status. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/328 "2024-04-18T16:18:22Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > In Judaism, we all get forgiven for everything every Yom Kippur Nitpick, G-d can forgive only sins against G-d and sins against ourselves. If we have sinned against others, we must seek their forgiveness. For example- I intentionally ate a bacon cheeseburger. G-d can forgive that. I got in a big fight with my sister and called her a few names. She needs to forgive me before that sin can be wiped away. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/329 "2024-04-18T16:20:02Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > In Judaism, we all get forgiven for everything every Yom Kippur, but those killjoy Rabbis put in a loophole such that we _don’t_ get forgiven if we sinned while consciously thinking “it’s OK, I’ll be forgiven on Yom Kippur”. Does Judaism have some form of repentance possible for someone who consciously did so? Or do they now have to walk around forever unforgiven for those particular sins? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/330 "2024-04-18T16:24:41Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > Just for the sake of academic argument, a verifiable miracle would be something I would call evidence. So let’s say that angels would appear, clearly visible, over every house of worship belonging to whatever is the “right” sect on the Sabbath, so on every Sunday if Orthodox / Catholic / mainstream Protestant, on every Friday if Muslim, on every Saturday if Jewish or Seventh-Day Adventist. That would be pretty compelling evidence. Unfortunately for all Abrahamic denominations, that never happens. I never understand this line of reasoning. “If there were a God, She would obviously want to make it very clear and obvious to everyone which religion is the right one”. Well, clearly either God doesn’t exist or God doesn’t want to do that. I don’t see how people feel justified in assuming the second possibility has no chance of being true. The lack of obvious evidence of God’s existence is certainly a reasonable basis for nonbelief, but I don’t see how you get from there to “If the hypothetical God actually existed, His motives would be obvious to everyone”. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/331 "2024-04-18T16:29:41Z")
I don’t take this stuff literally enough to need an answer to that question, but I think it’s cool if you _sincerely_ repent on Yom Kippur, as opposed to thinking “Ha ha, now I’m doing this ritual and stupid old God will be tricked into forgiving me”. And such sincere repentance would also atone for sins committed in previous years. But I’m getting out of my theological depth here. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/332 "2024-04-18T16:30:26Z")
Makes sense! ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/333 "2024-04-18T16:30:45Z")
> [@themapleleaf](#): > > I am an ex-Christian atheist. I stopped believing when what I thought to be evidence of God was debunked as fallacious to me. Well, this seems very germane to the OP! May I ask what evidence you had previously found to be intellectually convincing? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/334 "2024-04-18T16:33:19Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I never understand this line of reasoning. “If there were a God, She would obviously want to make it very clear and obvious to everyone which religion is the right one”. Well, clearly either God doesn’t exist or God doesn’t want to do that. I don’t see how people feel justified in assuming the second possibility has no chance of being true. In Judaism we think that nonbelievers aren’t penalized, at least if they are not one of us. In Christianity, nonbelievers go to hell. If that happens because god didn’t give enough evidence for a rational person to believe in him, then he is responsible and cannot be omnibenevolent. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/335 "2024-04-18T16:35:13Z")
I mean, I think the existence of pain, suffering and death in _this_ world already pretty much rules out the “omnibenevolent” possibility, at least if we define “benevolent” as “benevolent to humans”. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/336 "2024-04-18T16:49:25Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > at least if we define “benevolent” as “benevolent to humans”. But of course, all the religions do define it that way. God cares about _ **us** _, more then anything else. I could imagine the existence of a god who doesn’t actually care about whether or not we believe in the “correct” religion, but if that god exists, it’s _not_ the god of the Bible, because it would be entirely inconsistent with what the Christians claim to be true of their god. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/337 "2024-04-18T16:58:31Z")
I’ve been told this is from the Quran; I don’t know for sure if that’s true, but I love the idea. The reason God conceals Himself and allows multiple religions with conflicting belief systems to exist is that He wants to channel our natural competitiveness for good ends, motivating us to prove that we are kinder and more loving than those heathens. In fact, that doesn’t really seem to be how religious arguments usually get resolved, but it’s a very nice idea! ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/338 "2024-04-18T17:02:10Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > . . . it’s _not_ the god of the Bible, because it would be entirely inconsistent with what the Christians claim to be true of their god. We had the Bible for quite some time before Christianity came along. OTTOMH When the other folks on the boat figure out Jonah is cursed, he has to convince them to throw him overboard. They don’t want to do it- not wanting to kill a stranger even to save their own lives. OTTOMH When buying a gem for the breastplate of the Kohein Gadol, the seller is a gentile. He goes to retrieve the stone. He can’t because dad is napping and using the chest with the jewel in it as a footrest. Gentile goes back to the Jews to explain. “I can’t get the stone right now.” “Fine, you want more money- we’ll pay more.” “No, I don’t want more money. We agreed on a price. I just can’t get the stone cuz Dad is napping on the chest and I don’t want to wake him.” “Wow! You really know how to honor your father. As a reward, we’ll pay you more money!” “I’m not accepting a reward for being a good son. It’s what every son should do.” My point is that the Torah is very clear that a gentile can be righteous. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/339 "2024-04-18T17:06:43Z")
OTTOMH? WTF? Hey Discourse, here’s a complete sentence for you! ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/340 "2024-04-18T17:09:48Z")
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