# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/361 "2024-04-19T08:12:53Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Can’t we just give those AIs some straightforward commands about which knowledge they’re not allowed to acquire, with a just-in-case backup plan if we then need to keep them from communicating with each other? Good luck with composing _that_ protocol. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/362 "2024-04-19T08:16:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But predestination and absolute determinism is a direct logical consequence of omnipotence and omniscience. An Omni/Omni creator god knows what all the results of its actions will be and has absolute control over them, which requires a predetermined universe. And since it created that universe, every last thing that happens in it was decided by that god before that universe existed; if that wasn’t so, the god would be lacking in either omnipotence or omniscience. Certainly; and since an omniscient creator god knows everything that could possibly happen in every possible universe (and quite probably, in all of the impossible ones as well), that is a good proof of the Multiverse. Except, of course, it proves nothing useful. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/363 "2024-04-19T08:25:30Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Maybe humans will be crazy enough to uplift cows one day. … By that time we’ll probably all be vegetarians anyway, Or, you know, _other_ motivations… > **[Ameglian Major Cow](https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Ameglian_Major_Cow)** > > The Ameglian Major Cow (also referred to as the Dish of the Day) was one example of a race of artificially created, sentient creatures which were bred to want to be eaten. It appeared in the television adaptation of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the... ---
**Author:** ![Adeptus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4af34b/32.png) [@Adeptus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Adeptus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/364 "2024-04-19T09:20:08Z")
For me existence of VR, simulations and video games is argument that some Creator CAN exist and we are towards him just like simulated people are like towards us. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/365 "2024-04-19T11:04:45Z")
So you’re saying a God would be omniscient not just about the present, but also would be unable to not apply his power of omniscience to the future as well? Sounds like you’re denying this God choices that would be open to it in order to reach your conclusion. ETA: And that’s under the assumption that there is a ‘the’ future, as opposed to countless branchings-off of possible futures from every moment. Maybe God can see them all, but would that God know which timeline actually happens? _Contra_ Einstein, God _does_ play dice with the Universe, after all. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/366 "2024-04-19T14:09:14Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And that’s under the assumption that there is a ‘the’ future, as opposed to countless branchings-off of possible futures from every moment. Maybe God can see them all, but would that God know which timeline actually happens? A god who’s omniscient would, yes. That’s what the word means. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/367 "2024-04-19T16:38:31Z")
Yeah; that’s why as I said up-thread I consider the standard tri-omni Christian God to be _impossible,_ not just wildly unlikely. Throwing in all those “omnis” and other infinite qualities introduces multiple paradoxes that rule the existence of such a being out entirely. I’d buy the existence of Zeus or my own insanity before I’d buy the existence of the Christian God, because he _cannot_ exist. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/368 "2024-04-19T18:53:06Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > ETA: And that’s under the assumption that there is a ‘the’ future, as opposed to countless branchings-off of possible futures from every moment. Maybe God can see them all, but would that God know which timeline actually happens? _Contra_ Einstein, God _does_ play dice with the Universe, after all. He had better if he can inspire correct prophecies. And I can hardly claim to know about the roll of a die if I say the possible worlds for the outcome are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Now perhaps God gives the same prophecy, sees what happens, and destroys the universes where he got it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/369 "2024-04-19T18:53:37Z")
OK, does God know whether there are distinct cardinalities between the cardinality of the counting numbers and the cardinality of the continuum? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/370 "2024-04-19T19:20:38Z")
The Omnipotent Omniscient Creator of Everything would have created them, so presumably would understand them. But I don’t believe in the Omnipotent Omniscient Creator of Everything. I don’t think a nonexistent entity understands or knows anything. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/371 "2024-04-19T21:05:16Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The Omnipotent Omniscient Creator of Everything would have created them, so presumably would understand them. Then such a Creator would be familiar with the proof that it can’t be known whether or not any exist. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/372 "2024-04-19T21:51:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Then such a Creator would be familiar with the proof that it can’t be known whether or not any exist. Such a creator would certainly know that humans have come up with such a proof, yes. Whether such a creator’s mind would work the same way as human minds about mathematics I have no idea, and am not going to guess. Especially since, again, I don’t think that being exists; and therefore don’t think there’s anything in its nonexistent mind. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/373 "2024-04-19T22:32:04Z")
The problem here, with omnipotent god, is; _Are there are distinct cardinalities between the cardinality of the counting numbers and the cardinality of the continuum because the god wills it to be so?_ or, _Are there are distinct cardinalities between the cardinality of the counting numbers and the cardinality of the continuum because the god is constrained by the laws of mathematics?_ It’s just the Euthyphro Dilemma Part 2 Electric God-a-loo. (I’m very familiar with Christians that claim reality, in every conceivable way, is contingent on the whim of their version of God.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/374 "2024-04-19T22:40:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Such a creator would certainly know that humans have come up with such a proof, yes. Whether such a creator’s mind would work the same way as human minds about mathematics I have no idea, and am not going to guess. Especially since, again, I don’t think that being exists; and therefore don’t think there’s anything in its nonexistent mind. I will then regard this as a non-rebuttal of my intended claim that there are things that are inherently unknowable even to an omniscient God. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/375 "2024-04-19T22:49:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I will then regard this as a non-rebuttal of my intended claim that there are things that are inherently unknowable even to an omniscient God. Well, that’s really easy to debunk, omniscience excludes unknowables by definition. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/376 "2024-04-19T23:12:04Z")
OK then, it’s impossible for a God to be omniscient, because there are things that are unknowable even to a divine being who created the Universe. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2024, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/377 "2024-04-20T00:55:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I will then regard this as a non-rebuttal of my intended claim that there are things that are inherently unknowable even to an omniscient God. What, my statement that I don’t think that god exists? If that god doesn’t exist, then that claim has nothing to apply to, and is irrelevant. It’s like saying that I didn’t rebut your claim that the pink unicorn in my backyard eats popcorn. – I don’t think it’s necessary to posit the tri-omni creator god, or indeed any god at all, to say that there might be some being that is capable of understanding things about mathematics, or about the construction of the universe, which humans might be so constructed as to be unable to understand. I don’t know whether such beings exist; and I don’t know whether humans are in fact incapable of understanding particular mathematical things about the universe, and if so which things those are. I think either or both of those things are possible; but I don’t think they’ve got anything to do with whether there’s a creator god who’s both omnipotent and omniscient; let alone also omnibenevolent; let alone concerned with humans; let alone has handed down (very unclearly) some particular set of rules. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2024, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/378 "2024-04-20T01:16:07Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What, my statement that I don’t think that god exists? No, this one: > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Whether such a creator’s mind would work the same way as human minds about mathematics I have no idea, and am not going to guess. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2024, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/379 "2024-04-20T01:18:31Z")
Then see the rest of my post above. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2024, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/380 "2024-04-20T01:27:34Z")
Can’t say I can make much sense of it with respect to the point I’ve been trying to make - we seem to be talking past each other here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=20)