# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/381 "2024-04-20T01:40:53Z")
This reminds me of an answer to the old gotcha, “Could God make a rock so big that he couldn’t lift it?” I’m paraphrasing from memory, but the answer is no. God can do anything or assume any state, except those things or states that would render him less than omnipotent. He can’t do things that are incompatible with omnipotence. “Aha!” you retort. “If there are things he can’t do, whatever they are, for whatever reason, then he is not omnipotent!” “Whatever,” God replies. Anyway, is there a coherent definition for omniscience that takes a similar approach? God knows all knowable things. He knows all things, except those things incompatible with omniscience. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2024, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/382 "2024-04-20T01:43:18Z")
There is a similar paradox of omniscience. “I know all things and the answer to all questions.” “So, what is the one question you cannot answer?” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/383 "2024-04-20T01:47:24Z")
> A common response from Christian philosophers, such as Norman Geisler or William Lane Craig, is that the paradox assumes a wrong definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence, they say, does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that is possible according to his nature. > **[Omnipotence paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox)** > > The omnipotence paradox is a family of paradoxes that arise with some understandings of the term omnipotent. The paradox arises, for example, if one assumes that an omnipotent being has no limits and is capable of realizing any outcome, even a logically contradictory one such as creating a square circle. Atheological arguments based on the omnipotence paradox are sometimes described as evidence for countering theism. Other possible resolutions to the paradox hinge on the definition of omnipotence... IOW they get around the paradox by Nerfing the definition of omni_thing_. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/384 "2024-04-22T03:14:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Not to mention that an omni/omni god is logically impossible. If he knows the results of all his actions in advance, he is unable to change them. If he can change them then he is wrong about them when he knew the results before he made the change. I think the standard “explanation” is that God exists outside of time, so concepts like “in advance” and “before” don’t really apply. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/385 "2024-04-22T04:23:46Z")
You might as well just skip right to the “a human’s puny brain can’t understand God” stage of the argument. Because an explanation like that just creates a mass of new questions. If such a discussion ever did get to that stage, I would be asking the interlocutor “why are you trying to explain the unexplainable then? If you want me to have faith, it’s counterproductive to try to convince me with reasons (however specious).” ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/386 "2024-04-22T04:37:49Z")
I keep thinking, I’ve just skimmed the thread, so if someone said it already, sorry, but I just come back to the Star Trek movie, the one they’re searching God. Kirk says, “Excuse me, Why does God need a Starship?” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/387 "2024-04-22T05:13:18Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think the standard “explanation” is that God exists outside of time Where, again? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/388 "2024-04-22T06:21:36Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think the standard “explanation” is that God exists outside of time, so concepts like “in advance” and “before” don’t really apply. Seeing all of time laid out before you (which is implied by some theories of time) makes things even worse. I can see a meta-play where the character in the play sees all their lines and cannot change them. Omniscience implies God’s lines are set in stone, which negates omnipotence. And then there is the problem of when does God decide what to do. An eternal being would have “decided” at t = - infinity. I think the whole concept only makes sense to the ancients who didn’t have the tools to think about it too much. It is easy to say four sided triangle, it is a lot harder to come up with one. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/389 "2024-04-22T14:37:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think the whole concept only makes sense to the ancients who didn’t have the tools to think about it too much. It is easy to say four sided triangle, it is a lot harder to come up with one. Now, that’s not quite fair. The tools certainly existed. The ancient Greeks thought about these very questions. At least, after Aristotle. Christianity very specifically associated that kind of reasoning with paganism and made it verboten, until at _least_ Thomas Aquinas, if not later. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/390 "2024-04-22T18:04:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think the whole concept only makes sense to the ancients who didn’t have the tools to think about it too much. I think the ancients generally didn’t have omnipotent and omniscient gods. (And often they weren’t benevolent, either.) I suspect the TriOmni god kind of crept up on people. ‘My god is bigger than your god! My god can do x!’ – ‘No, my god is bigger than your god! My god can do x too, and can also do y!’ – ‘My god can do x and y and z!’ – ‘Well my god can do anything at all! Try beating that one!’ ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/391 "2024-04-22T18:49:48Z")
As explained by the 2000-Year-Old Man: INTERVIEWER: Did you believe in anything? OLD MAN: Yes, a guy – Phil. Philip was the leader of our tribe. INTERVIEWER: What made him the leader? OLD MAN: Very big, very strong, big beard, big arms, he could just kill you. He could walk on you and you would die. INTERVIEWER: You revered him? OLD MAN: We prayed to him. Would you like to hear one of our prayers? “Oh Philip. Please don’t take our eyes out and don’t pinch us and don’t hurt us….Amen.” INTERVIEWER: How long was his reign? OLD MAN: Not too long. Because one day, Philip was hit by lightning. And we looked up and said… **“There’s something bigger than Phil.”** ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/392 "2024-04-22T20:16:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Now, that’s not quite fair. The tools certainly existed. The ancient Greeks thought about these very questions. At least, after Aristotle. And the Bible was written before. I doubt that the priests knew about logic, at least not until Alexander the Great conquered the area, and probably not even then. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think the ancients generally didn’t have omnipotent and omniscient gods. (And often they weren’t benevolent, either.) > > I suspect the TriOmni god kind of crept up on people. ‘My god is bigger than your god! My god can do x!’ – ‘No, my god is bigger than your god! My god can do x too, and can also do y!’ – ‘My god can do x and y and z!’ – ‘Well my god can do anything at all! Try beating that one!’ The god of Genesis didn’t know where Adam and Eve were hiding. I know it has been retconned into him just pretending, but still. By the time of Christianity, the average person believed in a whole bunch of gods, so their god did have to be bigger, and Jesus had to become a demigod at least as powerful as the emperor. And they had to throw hell in to seal the deal. I’ve always thought that a lot of Christian theology could be explained as effective tools for sales and marketing rather than any reasonably consistent view of a god. People don’t want to convert because they’d have to stop eating prawns? Toss the kosher laws. You want to appeal to monotheistic Jews while making Jesus a god to make him more than just a guy. Bingo, invent the trinity. And circumcision? Right out. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/393 "2024-04-22T20:21:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The god of Genesis didn’t know where Adam and Eve were hiding. I know it has been retconned into him just pretending, but still. Yeah. And there’s “thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Which is not the same thing as “there are no other gods”. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/394 "2024-04-22T20:27:27Z")
I’d argue, and not just as a theist, it ain’t the same as “there are other gods” either. It’s open to question. If a Jewish mom tells her kids not to leave out cookies and milk and stockings for Santa, she is NOT stating that Santa exists. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2024, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/395 "2024-04-22T20:30:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Now, that’s not quite fair. The tools certainly existed. The ancient Greeks thought about these very questions. At least, after Aristotle. > > And the Bible was written before. I doubt that the priests knew about logic, at least not until Alexander the Great conquered the area, and probably not even then. What on Earth does that have to do with a triple-Omni God? The Hebrew Bible God is certainly not triple-Omni (and Christianity has to work pretty hard to make the stories fit a triple-Omni God). Christianity developed as it did precisely _because_ of that Greek and later Roman influence. Not in the areas of logic, at least until much later - that was brabded thoroughly pagan. But other influences, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/396 "2024-04-23T05:19:14Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Yeah. And there’s “thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Which is not the same thing as “there are no other gods”. That could be because they thought there were other gods, or they did and figured they’d better not say it because the kingdoms believing in those gods had more warriors, swords and chariots than the Hebrews did. So the commandment was ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/397 "2024-04-23T05:21:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What on Earth does that have to do with a triple-Omni God? The Hebrew Bible God is certainly not triple-Omni (and Christianity has to work pretty hard to make the stories fit a triple-Omni God). > > Christianity developed as it did precisely _because_ of that Greek and later Roman influence. Not in the areas of logic, at least until much later - that was brabded thoroughly pagan. But other influences, certainly. Nothing to do with the tri-omni god per se, but if they were aware of logic maybe they’d have written the Bible with fewer internal contradictions. But I was mostly reacting to the claim that the tools of logic existed for the priests. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/398 "2024-04-23T05:23:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But I was mostly reacting to the claim that the tools of logic existed for the priests. The claim is that the tools existed for the priests who came up with the triOmni God. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/399 "2024-04-23T06:16:05Z")
“Benevolence” is a relative term, but I think the God of the Hebrew Bible, on the whole, is certainly omnipotent and omniscient. That doesn’t really mesh with Him not knowing where Adam and Eve were in Genesis 3, but so it goes. Voyager appears to think the people who “wrote” the Bible should have been more internally consistent, but that’s a historical misunderstanding. The text as we have it was written by many different people at different times, and eventually codified into one document. The result isn’t necessarily logical or internally consistent, but if it were, I doubt it would have held people’s interest for 3000 years. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/400 "2024-04-23T06:17:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve always thought that a lot of Christian theology could be explained as effective tools for sales and marketing rather than any reasonably consistent view of a god. People don’t want to convert because they’d have to stop eating prawns? Toss the kosher laws. You want to appeal to monotheistic Jews while making Jesus a god to make him more than just a guy. Bingo, invent the trinity. And circumcision? Right out. Preach, brother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=21)