# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/401 "2024-04-23T15:25:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That could be because they thought there were other gods Is there any question that they thought there were other gods? From what I remember of the Exodus story, Moses’s god was better than the Egyptian god(s). They all turned their staffs (staves?) into snakes, but Moses’s snake was able to eat the other ones. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/402 "2024-04-23T15:27:27Z")
Some folks insist that (as in the animated film Prince Of Egypt) the egyptain priests used sleight of hand and stage magic, while Moses performed actual miracles. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/403 "2024-04-23T15:30:29Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > That doesn’t really mesh with Him not knowing where Adam and Eve were in Genesis 3, but so it goes. There are other issues. For example, there are cases where God says “I am going to punish the Israelites for their transgressions and get you new followers, get ready for the smite Moses” and then Moses talks him down. If God already knows that He is going to get talked down by Moses, is it all just performative for Moses’ benefit? Perhaps, and that’s often how I’ve seen it interpreted, but that’s definitely not what the text says. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/404 "2024-04-23T15:33:14Z")
I mean, sure, but that’s extra-biblical. In the text, they all do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/405 "2024-04-23T15:33:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There are other issues. For example, there are cases where God says “I am going to punish the Israelites for their transgressions and get you new followers, get ready for the smite Moses” and then Moses talks him down. If God already knows that He is going to get talked down by Moses, is it all just performative for Moses’ benefit? Perhaps, and that’s often how I’ve seen it interpreted, but that’s definitely not what the text says. God also often helped the Israelites in battle, but he was powerless against chariots. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/406 "2024-04-23T15:33:53Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > powerless against chariots Well, at least those with iron wheels. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/407 "2024-04-23T15:34:25Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Some folks insist that (as in the animated film Prince Of Egypt) the egyptain priests used sleight of hand and stage magic, while Moses performed actual miracles. There are other magicians and witches in the Bible as well. Yes, I’ve seen that interpretation. I also heard (from a Chabbad Rabbi) an interpretation where when God created the universe He created certain laws, like the laws of physics, but also laws that govern the supernatural and that diviners and magicians can tap into those laws to create magical effects. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/408 "2024-04-23T15:36:23Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > > > powerless against chariots > > Well, at least those with iron wheels. The iron grants them 50% spell resistance and advantage on all saving throws against divine casters, they hard counter Joshua. (Moses could beat them, he has Greater Spell Penetration, but of course he did not enter the promised land). ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/409 "2024-04-23T15:37:48Z")
Maybe God is a woodland elf or something – aren’t they allergic to iron? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/410 "2024-04-23T15:42:53Z")
Later Christian theology held that God and _only_ God was the source of supernatural effects. So while the ancient people who wrote the original myth had no problem with the idea that the Egyptian gods existed and could do things, later Christians retconned that away. The “God is unknowable” idea has come up. so I’ll point out the problem with that: if something is unknowable, then we _can’t_ know anything about them and talking about what they are like is meaningless. While it’s an argument that can counter many arguments agaisnt God’s existence, it’s self-defeating since it also eliminates most of the reasons people want to believe in a god in the first place. You can’t meaningfully claim that an unknowable god is “good”, or cares about humanity, or wants humanity to do something, or that we should follow or respect them; you’ve just claimed that we don’t and can’t understand or know them. The “unknowable God” is frankly mostly a rhetorical device bought out for arguments agaisnt unbelievers, then promptly abandoned afterwards; even the believers themselves seldom treat it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/411 "2024-04-23T15:53:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > > [@Voyager](#): > > > > That could be because they thought there were other gods > > Is there any question that they thought there were other gods? From what I remember of the Exodus story, Moses’s god was better than the Egyptian god(s). They all turned their staffs (staves?) into snakes, but Moses’s snake was able to eat the other ones. I have not heard that scholars question that old-school Hebrews “thought there were other gods”, which itself seems like a very modern turn of phrase and way of looking at it. It was not like current Orthodox Judaism. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Some folks insist that (as in the animated film Prince Of Egypt) the egyptain priests used sleight of hand and stage magic, while Moses performed actual miracles. Hey, if you merely want to turn staves into snakes or what not, any old wizardry or galder will do, no need to mess with any gods. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/412 "2024-04-23T16:18:25Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > “Benevolence” is a relative term, but I think the God of the Hebrew Bible, on the whole, is certainly omnipotent and omniscient. That doesn’t really mesh with Him not knowing where Adam and Eve were in Genesis 3, but so it goes. I’m also omniscient – I knew where I parked my car for example. There’s millions of things I don’t know, but so it goes. Also, on the omnibenevolence thing, sure it’s relative, but someone that wants to make the claim that God is omnibelevolent should _relish_ the opportunity to explain how so. How to justify a lot of the bloodthirsty collective-punishment and treating women/children as property…not the mention the inconsistencies. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/413 "2024-04-23T17:12:58Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Voyager appears to think the people who “wrote” the Bible should have been more internally consistent, but that’s a historical misunderstanding. The text as we have it was written by many different people at different times, and eventually codified into one document. The result isn’t necessarily logical or internally consistent, but if it were, I doubt it would have held people’s interest for 3000 years. I’m fully aware of why it isn’t consistent. For one thing, I suspect the editors were working with material from different traditions, and felt they had to satisfy those from each in the final product. Not to mention they didn’t have the benefit of millennia of literary criticism. There is only a problem if you consider the Bible to be divinely inspired. That’s when it should be consistent. However, the Iliad is reasonably internally consistent, and it has kept people’s interest at least as long. > [@Babale](#): > > The claim is that the tools existed for the priests who came up with the triOmni God. The concept came up well after the time I’m interested in. I suspect if the priests from the Exile period proposed omnibenevolence they’d have been laughed out of the Temple. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/414 "2024-04-23T17:25:07Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > However, the Iliad is reasonably internally consistent, and it has kept people’s interest at least as long. Whoa. OK, that argument convinced me to believe that the Greek gods exist. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/415 "2024-04-23T19:36:32Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Whoa. OK, that argument convinced me to believe that the Greek gods exist. Their temples are way cooler than any shul I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2024, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/416 "2024-04-24T16:36:43Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > INTERVIEWER: Did you believe in anything? > > OLD MAN: Yes, a guy – Phil. Philip was the leader of our tribe. The Prince of Insufficient Light? ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/417 "2024-05-04T20:29:18Z")
To prove the existence of God isn’t something that mere humans can do. If we could do that, then we’d likely be Gods ourselves. And we’re not. I believe in God, but I also know that my religion isn’t logical, and can’t be proven. The closest I can come is to point the skeptic to a Joe Bonamassa concert. Listening to him will bring religion to the Godless. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/418 "2024-05-04T21:21:00Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > I believe in God, but I also know that my religion isn’t logical, and can’t be proven. I can only wish that all religious people were similarly self-aware. Boring family anecdote: my sister came to be born again through the influence of what she decided was an undeniable act of God (a voice in her head). Fine, she has faith. Only she spends a lot of time and energy trying to accumulate further evidence that her faith is justified. She can’t see that she is, in effect, denying her own faith with these efforts, not to mention that nothing she has ever shared with me was anything like evidence. Her idea of a killer argument is intelligent design, so 'nuff said. It makes our relationship a little difficult, but fortunately it is at a distance. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/419 "2024-05-05T00:03:05Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Boring family anecdote: my sister came to be born again through the influence of what she decided was an undeniable act of God (a voice in her head). I never had a moment like that. It’s just something I gradually came to. Some people have dramatic testimonies. But I don’t. I hope your sister doesn’t worry too much about proving anything, and spends more time living her faith, which hopefully will drive her to want to help other people more. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/420 "2024-05-05T00:27:23Z")
[Fine tuning problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe). Also quantum mechanics. This universe shows every sign of being slapped together on deadline, probably after an all-nighter. Possibly by an A- student (after grade inflation): at least we have stars and the errant carbon chains don’t screw up the experiment too much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=22)