# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/561 "2024-05-13T00:59:31Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > Basically, I see the existence of the Universe as evidence of God. I think there had to have been a source of energy in order for the Universe to come into existence. That source was/is something incredibly powerful, and probably beyond our comprehension. The “was/is” bit there has me scratching my head, as it seems you’re not ruling out a source that brought our universe into existence and then, uh, died, or whatever. But put that aside for a moment; the “something” you mention there — do you think _it_ came from nothing? Because, right before that, you’d said of stuff you can see that _“there’s the existence of Something, and I don’t think it came from Nothing.”_ So if this source is _another_ Something — well, you seem to be on record as thinking, for some reason, that Something doesn’t come from Nothing. So — what follows? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/562 "2024-05-13T01:02:17Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > Basically, I see the existence of the Universe as evidence of God. As tremendously vague as that is when it comes to what normally one would think of as “evidence” (it ranks down there with puppies, rainbows and pretty flowers), I do have to ask: In what way is the universe evidence of the god you believe in and not any other god? ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/563 "2024-05-13T01:14:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As tremendously vague as that is when it comes to what normally one would think of as “evidence” Sorry man. It’s a tough topic. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/564 "2024-05-13T01:15:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The “was/is” bit there has me scratching my head, as it seems you’re not ruling out a source that brought our universe into existence and then, uh, died, or whatever. What I meant was a “was and is”…I was just shortcutting while typing. You guys are really getting nitpicky here. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/565 "2024-05-13T01:18:05Z")
Well, make a claim that the god that you believe in, and none other, can be the only reason for the existence of the universe and some may want a little follow-up. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/566 "2024-05-13T01:23:49Z")
I get it. The thing is, I’m making a leap of faith. I realize that and have admitted it. I do think the Universe’s existence is evidence of God. But I can understand why someone would not agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/567 "2024-05-13T01:28:57Z")
I don’t think you are quite getting it. You _seem_ to be assuming that by using the word “God” that everyone is talking about the same god as you are and thus the only choice is the god you were taught to believe in or no god at all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/568 "2024-05-13T01:29:07Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > What I meant was a “was and is”…I was just shortcutting while typing. > > You guys are really getting nitpicky here. Well, look, even if you didn’t mean it the way I took it, the point still seems to stand regardless of whether I’m nitpicking what you specified: even if we for some reason grant that something can’t come from nothing — which I _don’t,_ that’s apparently just a point you asserted in passing — then it doesn’t necessarily mean the source of that something _is still around._ It could’ve created stuff and then, some time later, ceased to exist. But, speaking of nitpicking, you only addressed one of the two things I mentioned in that post; I also mentioned that you said (a) you don’t think something came from nothing, and that you said (b) something else therefore created the something that we see. Which leads me to ask: if you think Something #1 wouldn’t have come from _nothing,_ but from a Something #2, then — by your logic — did Something #2 come from nothing, or from a Something #3? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/569 "2024-05-13T01:35:06Z")
It is hard to talk about God without talking about mans ability to comprehend abstract concepts. The written word whether it be true or not goes to a level unmatched in modern psychology. We are made in the image and likeness of God, this is something someone can comprehend. We attach virtues to this God and it becomes the perfect model for an intelligent being like a human to base his identity on. Basing our identities on other humans would be dangerous at best. Even the mystery of the trinity makes sense to me. I am a father, I am a son and I am also a free man that goes out into the world and makes whatever mark on humanity I will make. I am not the same person when I am in my father’s presence or the same person while with my son as I am amongst my peers. I think the actual form God exists in in not nearly so important as the influence God can have on who we become. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/570 "2024-05-13T01:36:51Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > My belief change was my choice. For the next fifteen minutes, I want you to believe the sun revolves around the earth. Go ahead and revert back when the fifteen minutes is up. If you can understand that you can’t turn that belief off like a light switch, maybe you’ll understand why it’s the same for belief in God. We change our beliefs based on two things, generally. Evidence or experience. Faith of the religious sort is usually based on experience. Let me tell you a little story. It’s a rough one but I don’t know how else to hammer it home. I grew up with two very abusive parents including a stepfather who abused me from the time I was ten to the time I left home at seventeen. I found out later my Mom knew it was happening and did nothing, which is really funny because when the truth came out she lost her ever-loving mind trying to make up reasons why it wasn’t true. Well I don’t want to get too in the weeds but I legally emancipated from my family and then I told a counselor about the abuse. It was supposed to be confidential with the counselor but she was required to report it to social services. So that’s how that story broke in the family. I was blamed, shamed, ostracized from my family, ostracized by friends because I was a hot mess. My mother disowned me, I never saw my step siblings ever again because their mother concluded I was a lying bitch. My grandmother told me it was my fault. It really just felt like everyone turned against me, again, for something I didn’t even want other people to know. Many people assumed I was just trying to get back at my mother for psychologically torturing me all those years. This was all happening while I was working full time to support myself and trying to graduate high school. I was top of my class. I managed to keep my ranking but I missed so much class from sitting in the school bathroom crying I got a stern warning letter threatening my graduation. I thought about suicide on a daily basis. I lost everything, including my reputation as an honest and good person, because of something that someone I trusted more than anyone in the world did to me. He never suffered a single consequence. But that’s not the worst part. The worst part was that I couldn’t relate to anyone anymore, including my feel - good church family and their hollow messages about God’s supposed love. I remember praying to God for help and getting nothing. I remember begging Him not to let me lose my faith but He didn’t listen. Nothing I did could prevent my faith from slipping away from me. Do you really think after everything else I had lost, I would choose to lose my faith at that time? Really? Why would I make that choice? No, we move toward or away from things because experience or evidence leaves us no other choice. That belief is a choice is just another article of faith. I didn’t really discover reason and empiricism until later. Personal experience deep-sixed my belief. Lack of evidence solidified it. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/571 "2024-05-13T01:38:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think you are quite getting it. > You _seem_ to be assuming that by using the word “God” that everyone is talking about the same god as you are and thus the only choice is the god you were taught to believe in or no god at all. No I think I’m getting it. As I said, it’s a tough topic. I think I’ve explained myself good enough for you to understand where I’m coming from. You’re free to disagree with my views/beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/572 "2024-05-13T01:42:39Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > If you can understand that you can’t turn that belief off like a light switch, maybe you’ll understand why it’s the same for belief in God. We change our beliefs based on two things, generally. Evidence or experience. Faith of the religious sort is usually based on experience. My experience is very different than yours. I respect your experience and what you went through as a child is unbelievable. I’m very sorry you had to deal with all of that. There are many situations where people don’t think they’re getting support from their church. As Christians, we often fall very short in supporting our own church family, as well as the larger community. As for belief, in my situation, it was a choice. I made the choice, and no one but me made that choice. I don’t agree with your view on that at all. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/573 "2024-05-13T01:48:36Z")
Okay, so God gave you a choice, but I didn’t get one? Doesn’t sound very just to me. I always used to feel cursed when I was a kid, like there was something uniquely bad about me that was just inviting failure. That curse lifted when I met my husband. It was the first time I believed good things really were possible for me. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/574 "2024-05-13T01:53:31Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Okay, so God gave you a choice, but I didn’t get one? No, I think you have a choice, just like I have a choice. You’re not a robot. As humans, we have choices in these matters. And I’m glad your life is better now than it was before. It sounds like you really came through a lot of stuff. But that doesn’t make you correct on the “choice” topic. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/575 "2024-05-13T01:54:25Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > > You don’t get to choose. > > We have choice in the matter. You’re incorrect. > > You had a time in your life where you believed. Then, you had a different time in your life where you didn’t. Those were choices you made. If so, it’s not a choice made with the conscious mind. There is no way I can decide to believe something I don’t believe; any more than I could decide that starting tomorrow I’m going to hate cats. > [@survinga](#): > > As for belief, in my situation, it was a choice. I made the choice, and no one but me made that choice. I don’t agree with your view on that at all. @Spice_Weasel’s view, and mine, both based on experience, is that no it is not a choice. Maybe humans vary so much that some humans can choose to believe in that fashion. But even if you can do it, that doesn’t mean that everyone or anyone else can do it. > [@survinga](#): > > I think I’ve explained myself good enough for you to understand where I’m coming from. I think it’s pretty clear that you haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/576 "2024-05-13T01:56:27Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > @Spice_Weasel’s view, and mine, both based on experience, is that no it is not a choice. Maybe humans vary so much that some humans can choose to believe in that fashion. But even if you can do it, that doesn’t mean that everyone or anyone else can do it. You’re not a robot. People can choose to believe in God or not. It’s that simple. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/577 "2024-05-13T01:59:26Z")
I disagree VERY strongly. Belief IME is an emotional gut thing. Choose to believe I AM GOD. Then tomorrow, decide that Garfield is God. Let me know how that goes. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/578 "2024-05-13T02:03:46Z")
The Christian belief system will fall apart without that tenet. If God isn’t an option for some people, than his way of sorting them out doesn’t seem very just, and God must be just, Ergo… It’s how conservatives can’t have a single bit of empathy for trans people because if they accepted that gender is a social construct their entire patriarchal worldview would fall apart including their chosen interpretation of the Bible. Beware of any ideology that is that fragile. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/579 "2024-05-13T02:04:34Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > You’re not a robot. People can choose to believe in God or not. It’s that simple. I don’t see what not being a robot has to do with it. And no, it is most certainly not that simple. I can choose what to eat for breakfast tomorrow morning. But I can’t choose to eat roc eggs. I can’t even choose to eat dodo eggs. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/580 "2024-05-13T02:05:09Z")
I can’t choose to like olives, either. Yech. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=30)