# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/61 "2024-04-11T02:29:03Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > their history has not just been extremely unusual, but unusual in _precisely the way that their religious prophets predicted_. We must be using different definitions of “precisely”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/62 "2024-04-11T02:36:35Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Moreover, their history has not just been extremely unusual, but unusual in _precisely the way that their religious prophets predicted_. Name one. Quote the original prophesy, tell us approximately when it was made, then tell us the event that fulfilled it. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/63 "2024-04-11T03:43:25Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Of course the much simpler and more likely argument is just that these folks are real good at being socially insular (had a LOT of practice, and most of it forced upon them) and they consider taking concrete action on earth to fulfill their book’s prophesy to be important enough that they just kept trying and would not quit until they succeeded, no matter how many centuries it takes. > > It happens that we are living in the era of one of those successes. So it seems foreordained. Had the outcome of WW-II not been the creation of Israel, the Jewish people would still be trying to make their homeland today. And the rest of us would observe no evidence of some special relationship with the non-existent god(s). So your theory is that these people _just happen_ to be more stubbornly committed to their religion than any other people in history? That in itself would suggest that maybe there’s some difference between their religion and the others, wouldn’t it? It’s not like we’re dealing with a small sample size; “tiny nation gets swallowed up by big empire” is a constant motif throughout history, yet there’s only one singular example of a nation successfully maintaining their identity through centuries of exile. And although the events of 1948 add further evidence, the survival of the Jews through thousands of years of exile, often under harshly oppressive conditions, was already a historically unique event, so the re-establishment of Israel isn’t essential to the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/64 "2024-04-11T03:45:25Z")
Well, now you’re moving the goalposts. Nobody said anything about convincing people that God isn’t a horrific asshole! 😉 But the existence of sickness, injustice and death in the world should have already tipped you off to that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/65 "2024-04-11T04:11:09Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > So your theory is that these people _just happen_ to be more stubbornly committed to their religion than any other people in history? That in itself would suggest that maybe there’s some difference between their religion and the others, wouldn’t it? > > It’s not like we’re dealing with a small sample size; “tiny nation gets swallowed up by big empire” is a constant motif throughout history, yet there’s only one singular example of a nation successfully maintaining their identity through centuries of exile. This is the fallacy that a survivor is special, not just lucky. Now we had the advantage of being isolated by the Christian majority. If they had been more welcoming the current assimilation process would have happened long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/66 "2024-04-11T04:12:27Z")
Consider for example Deuteronomy 29, when Moses addresses Israel and warns them of various horrific disasters that will come to pass in the event that they fail to obey God’s Law. Chapter 30 adds a bit of consolation, confirming that even if Israel incurs such punishment, they will always be forgiven and get to return to the Land eventually. In 31:16ff, God confirms to Moses that the Israelites will in fact backslide and be punished with exile. And the exile and return subsequently came to pass! Clearly miraculous prophecy, right? Well, not really. The counterargument is that those passages are obviously talking about the _Babylonian_ exile, which had _already happened_ when they were written. The author was a mere political propagandist, inventing retrospective “prophecies” of disaster befalling Israel in order to put his own explanation of the causes of those disasters into God’s mouth. On the other hand, it’s notable that the prophecies did proceed to come true _again_ when the Romans exiled Israel. I’m not going to claim that it’s completely implausible that that could be mere coincidence, but it would be quite a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/67 "2024-04-11T04:16:20Z")
> [@philipdalton](#): > > Would you cite the appearance of things in nature having been designed as evidence, or the fulfillment of Biblical prophecies in our modern age? The trouble with prophecies is that Biblical prophecies are fuzzy at best. The prediction/prophecy of what the cosmic microwave background radiation would be if the Big Bang theory was correct was precise, and was precisely measured. Some of the supposed predictions for Jesus work only if you convert weeks to years or something and start from some more or less arbitrary date. If the Bible or other holy book got facts about the natural world, like the size and age of the universe or the earth, right, it would not be proof of god since they might have learned it from aliens. But it would be a lot more convincing than what we have today. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/68 "2024-04-11T04:18:27Z")
You can’t go wrong with an “Something bad is going to happen” prophecy… especially when it is open ended. If nothing happens, it’s going to happen in the future. Do you have any prophecies that are actually precise? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/69 "2024-04-11T04:22:45Z")
If there are only a few survivors of such a historic process, we could say they got lucky. For there to be _exactly one_ survivor, it raises the possibility that there’s something else going on. Jews have lived in lots of places where we faced constant threats of torture and murder for practicing our religion, and in lots of other places where we were treated well and had every opportunity to assimilate. Neither the carrot nor the stick have ever been completely effective. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/70 "2024-04-11T04:24:12Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > So your theory is that these people _just happen_ to be more stubbornly committed to their religion than any other people in history? That in itself would suggest that maybe there’s some difference between their religion and the others, wouldn’t it? I’m going to guess that they aren’t the only non-assimilated, identity-preserving group on earth. They’re just the group whose story has been pulled into the story that we know best - the one about US. I haven’t gone looking for other groups and I’m pretty sure you (general) haven’t either. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/71 "2024-04-11T04:30:01Z")
Nope. I told you this wouldn’t convince a skeptic. But you’re exaggerating by reducing it to “something bad is going to happen”. It’s specifically predicting military defeat, followed by exile, followed by a triumphant return. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/72 "2024-04-11T04:31:14Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I’m going to guess that they aren’t the only non-assimilated, identity-preserving group on earth. They’re just the group whose story has been pulled into the story that we know best - the one about US. > > I haven’t gone looking for other groups and I’m pretty sure you (general) haven’t either. So, you’re going to guess that **if** you bothered to look for evidence, you’d find some. Taking that on faith, are you? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/73 "2024-04-11T04:32:13Z")
My faith in humans mistaking themselves for the center of the universe is vast. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/74 "2024-04-11T04:56:56Z")
Again, that is an open-ended prophesy that cannot be proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/75 "2024-04-11T05:57:11Z")
I think this sort of discussion is usually hampered by an unspoken, and unquestioned, assumption that we acquire knowledge (or belief) only through argument and/or evidence. But most of our beliefs aren’t like that. If I believe I have a headache, I didn’t reason myself into that position, nor did I collect evidence to support it: I simply have a headache. There’s no way to further ground this knowledge, and no prospect of questioning it—I can’t really be wrong about having a headache, if I feel like I have one, then I do. In fact, that’s what grounds all our knowledge: our evidence is rooted in experience of that evidence, which then itself can’t be similarly grounded on pain of circularity—you know that, for instance, the sun rises in the morning because you’ve seen it rise; but ‘seeing it rise’ is again just something you know yourself to have experienced. (Of course, the content of such experiences can be false or misleading, as in hallucinations or carefully constructed deceptions, but that doesn’t lessen the mere fact of that experience, just invalidates further conclusions drawn from it.) So there are evidently ways of knowing that don’t rely on argument or evidence, and nevertheless produce robust knowledge. If there is a god, then it perhaps they could make themself known in a similar way—a particular kind of revelation that lets you know them the way you know your migraine. Then, of course, trying to convince somebody else of that would be just as pointless as trying to convince them they have a headache: it won’t work unless they already do. Maybe there are some (‘chosen’) people that actually have such knowledge of god. Doubtlessly, there are loads that believe they do, but are wrong. I don’t have either, so I have no belief in god; but that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe because of lack of evidence, or lack of convincing arguments: it may be reasonable to believe even in the face of such an absence. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/76 "2024-04-11T07:12:40Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > there’s only one singular example of a nation successfully maintaining their identity through centuries of exile. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > For there to be _exactly one_ survivor, it raises the possibility that there’s something else going on. The Basque people disagree. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > On the other hand, it’s notable that the prophecies did proceed to come true _again_ when the Romans exiled Israel. Self-fulfilling prophecies are a mighty thing indeed, by Jove! > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > It’s specifically predicting military defeat, followed by exile, followed by a triumphant return. What you call specifical sounds like a typical adventure movie plot. It may make you proud but it does not prove anything at all. > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > If I believe I have a headache, I didn’t reason myself into that position, nor did I collect evidence to support it: I simply have a headache. If you have a headache, that is evidence that you have a headache. That would not be an argument, it would be a fact. I, of course, would have to take your word for it. I cannot know whether you have a headache or not (leaving diagnostic machines like MRT aside). If Godott made a public miracle, it would not be an argument either: it would be evidence too (after trying to falsify it to the best of our abilities). Infering that the sun will rise tomorrow because it has done so every day so far is a logically very different proposition: for that there is no evidence, there is a physical model (Newton and so on) and a strog case for induction based on experience. A miracle and induction are not comparable IMO. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/77 "2024-04-11T07:25:41Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > If I believe I have a headache, I didn’t reason myself into that position, nor did I collect evidence to support it: I simply have a headache. Does your head ache? There’s your evidence. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/78 "2024-04-11T08:43:02Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I mean I suppose it could be some other extremely powerful entity messing with us to make us think god exists, but that is just replacing one unknown nigh-omnipotent being for another, so taking Occam’s razor, I’m sticking with the traditional one. Its not so much god in the gaps if the gap is precisely god shaped. This sounds like Larry Niven’s God Gambit. Members of a sufficiently advanced alien civilisation could replicate miracles and other phenomena that would convince members of a less advanced civilisation that they are gods. This strategy (the God Gambit) might even be a commonplace and convenient way for alien civilisations at different levels of sophistication to interact with each other; a prospect that sounds extremely disturbing. If there really are sufficiently advanced civilisations out there capable of spoofing less capable cultures in order to make them subservient or pliable, that would be just another cosmic horror that we may have to thank God for, assuming She exists. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/79 "2024-04-11T09:03:21Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > A [miracle](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miracle) is not an [argument](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/argument) either, just look up what those words mean. Heh. > [@](#): > > Another priest said, ‘Is it true you’ve said you’ll believe in any god whose existence can be proved by logical debate?’ > > ‘Yes.’ > > Vimes had a feeling about the immediate future and took a few steps away from Dorfl. > > ‘But the gods plainly do exist,’ said a priest. > > ‘It Is Not Evident.’ > > A bolt of lightning lanced through the clouds and hit Dorfl’s helmet. There was a sheet of flame and then a trickling noise. Dorfl’s molten armour formed puddles around his white-hot feet. > > ‘I Don’t Call That Much Of An Argument,’ said Dorfl calmly, from somewhere in the clouds of smoke. > > ‘It’s tended to carry the audience,’ said Vimes. ‘Up until now.’ - Terry Pratchett, _Feet of Clay_ > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > If there are only a few survivors of such a historic process, we could say they got lucky. For there to be _exactly one_ survivor, it raises the possibility that there’s something else going on. So Superman is proof that God exists? Does one survivor “raise the possibility” twice as high as two survivors? How does the math work on this? > [@Velocity](#): > > For instance, many Christians will claim something is a miracle when it’s mundane/natural - “I had a migraine headache this morning, I prayed, and it was gone by afternoon!” That’s not a provable miracle at all. [Tim Minchin has some thoughts on the matter](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDcWnOwzWLQ). ( **NB: contains swearing** ) ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/80 "2024-04-11T11:29:15Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > > > If there are only a few survivors of such a historic process, we could say they got lucky. For there to be _exactly one_ survivor, it raises the possibility that there’s something else going on. > > So Superman is proof that God exists? Superman is a [borderline Jew](http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?ID=70)! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=5)