# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/101 "2024-04-11T16:09:43Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And although the events of 1948 add further evidence, the survival of the Jews through thousands of years of exile, often under harshly oppressive conditions, was already a historically unique event, so the re-establishment of Israel isn’t essential to the argument. Not to be snarky, but my term for this is “accidents of history”, combined with their sense of entitlement (I don’t mean this in a mean way btw rather than just the strength of their beliefs, which doesn’t need a god). There seem to be certain ethnicities and cultures who are very good at holding grudges through hundreds or thousands of years of history, or over stupid things (the middle east, Ireland, and the Balkans come to mind) and they are bloody determined to perpetuate this shit. I’m a Canadian of Scottish ancestry (trust me, I really couldn’t give a rat’s ass) so if I and my fellow Scottish descendants demanded a Scottish homeland free from the UK, would that be a proof of God? All of these religious, cultural things are ultimately a choice (and I’m not including skin colour btw) and the people who fight for this often bring on their own stress and misery (holocaust excepted). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/102 "2024-04-11T16:22:09Z")
Riffing off something I read a long time ago: Imagine a circle the size of the known universe, made up of individual hydrogen atoms. It’s not a perfect circle, but it’s as close to a perfect circle as is possible in our universe. Pi, calculated to the first 32 digits, is sufficiently precise to describe the exact ratio of this circle’s circumference to its diameter. All God needs to do is to round pi off to 32 digits, such that all future calculations give a rational number, and I’ll believe. Of course, it’s not clear _which_ God performed this miracle, so I’ll add my own twist: any God who wants to be considered for belief is assigned an eight-digit number. They must round pi off to 40 digits: the first 32 suffice to describe the universe-spanning hydrogen circle, and the last eight digits are their unique code. That way I’ll know which God to believe in. (Note: a more perfect circle might be possible with electrons, or quarks, or something, and pi might need to be calculated to more digits. I accept any such corrections without changing the structure of the argument). ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/103 "2024-04-11T16:30:47Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > If you have a headache, that is evidence that you have a headache. > [@snfaulkner](#): > > Does your head ache? There’s your evidence. Well, that’s just blatantly circular, though: in order to use my headache as evidence towards concluding that I have a headache, I’d first have to know that I have a headache… In which case, I wouldn’t need any further evidence. More importantly, it’s clear that evidence isn’t the general reason we know anything: if that were so, we couldn’t know anything, since whatever evidence we had would need evidence of being, in fact, evidence. We need something to ground the regress, and that’s our experience—which hence, we can’t know evidentially. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/104 "2024-04-11T16:31:03Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > I’m a Canadian of Scottish ancestry (trust me, I really couldn’t give a rat’s ass) so if I and my fellow Scottish descendants demanded a Scottish homeland free from the UK, would that be a proof of God? You Scots sure are a contentious people [![](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/863/378/2d7.jpg) ](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/863/378/2d7.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/105 "2024-04-11T16:36:50Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Well, the difference between omnipotent and nigh-omnipotent is both critical, and probably impossible for us to determine. For your example, the Book of Revelation has existed for many centuries. I’d think it a fairly trivial matter for super-advanced aliens to have acquired a copy, and thus know what “miracles” they need to reproduce to copy Revelation accurately. After that, it’s just a matter of “Can they fake it well enough?”, and with Alien Super-Science, that seems entirely plausible to me. We’ve all seen Star Trek, after all. Teleporters, tractor beams, artificial gravity, holodecks, nanotechnology - those would all work really well together to reproduce any “miracle” you might list. So it is really a question as to whether you find the aliens in the gap more convincing than gods in the gap, and since as I said the gap is sufficiently god shaped I’m probably going to go with that. There is also a Pascals wager type reasoning to my decision. If these things are indeed aliens with near god-like power, they for some reason want to convince me that they are god are perfectly capable of smiting me, so who am I to displease them. > [@commasense](#): > > ISTM that two things that differentiate Jews from other groups in antiquity and through to the modern era is the expectation that most (men, at least) will be literate, and that discussing and debating the scriptures (and everything else) is an accepted, even required, practice. The other things that Jews have is a willingness to tolerate other religions and cultures practiced by others with no particular desire to convert them, while at the same time having very strict traditions against intermarriage and not accepting the gods and traditions of others. This allowed them to live along side other more numerous cultures in (relative) peace while at the same time not being assimilated by them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/106 "2024-04-11T16:38:44Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > > [@commasense](#): > > > > ISTM that two things that differentiate Jews from other groups in antiquity and through to the modern era is the expectation that most (men, at least) will be literate, and that discussing and debating the scriptures (and everything else) is an accepted, even required, practice. > > The other things that Jews have is a willingness to tolerate other religions and cultures practiced by others with no particular desire to convert them, while at the same time having very strict traditions against intermarriage and not accepting the gods and traditions of others. This allowed them to live along side other more numerous cultures in (relative) peace while at the same time not being assimilated by them. And all of these things are _adaptations to living in exile_, because Rabbinical Judaism was forged by exile. So again, not a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/107 "2024-04-11T16:39:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What I don’t like about religious people is that they presume to know what “reality” is, based off their belief system. And they tend to not react well to evidence that is contrary to what they already “know”. This behaviour is sort of endemic to humans - religious or not - there’s a tendency for people to just assume their little bubble of reality is how the whole thing is (which is why we get stuff like people asking why English people are speaking American instead of their own language) ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/108 "2024-04-11T16:45:20Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So it is really a question as to whether you find the aliens in the gap more convincing than gods in the gap, and since as I said the gap is sufficiently god shaped I’m probably going to go with that. But there is one critical difference: The Human Race exists. We know it’s possible for a biological species to exist in this universe, and become technologically advanced. The only “beliefs” needed are that some other alien species also exists, and that there is more to science than we have discovered, and that it’s possible to make those discoveries. History of science and technology makes that a pretty good looking bet. But we have no evidence at all that Gods exist, or that it is even possible for Gods to exist in this universe. The leap you have to take to get to God is far greater than the leap to aliens. > [@](#): > > There is also a Pascals wager type reasoning to my decision. If these things are indeed aliens with near god-like power, they for some reason want to convince me that they are god are perfectly capable of smiting me, so who am I to displease them. Well, yes, this is the Stargate Problem. I’d certainly be down for _appeasing_ these aliens, but in my heart I’d still know they were a bunch of fakers. And kind of lame. Being a super-advanced alien isn’t enough? No, little green man needs to be a god, too? Fucking Space Incels. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/109 "2024-04-11T16:49:02Z")
Circular? A headache is not knowledge, a headache is a feeling (a bad one: it hurts). If you feel a feeling, that is proof that you have that feeling. Feeling a feeling is what feelings consist of. It is not proof of knowledge. > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > in order to use my headache as evidence towards concluding that I have a headache, I’d first have to know that I have a headache… If you want to state it that way, go ahead. I think it is enough to feel your headache to be aware that your head hurts. You can deny it, call it circular, throw an anchor to ground the regress, it does not matter: your head will still hurt. Perhaps even more so. But if you still want to reconcile experience and evidence there is always the good old Cartesian _cogito ergo sum_. Still does not convince me of any deity’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/110 "2024-04-11T16:55:01Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I think it is enough to feel your headache to be aware that your head hurts. But that’s exactly my point: you know you have a headache without any need for evidence or argument; it’s enough to simply have that headache. Hence, not all knowledge is delivered to you evidentially. Or to put it the other way around: it’s reasonable to believe you have a headache, without any need for evidence to that effect. Hence, there are things it’s reasonable to believe without evidence. So telling those who believe in god that they shouldn’t, because of a lack of evidence, doesn’t quite fit the bill: it’s not a given that it’s only reasonable to believe in god on the basis of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/111 "2024-04-11T16:56:53Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > But that’s exactly my point: you know you have a headache without any need for evidence or argument; it’s enough to simply have that headache. Hence, not all knowledge is delivered to you evidentially. A painful sensation in my head _is_ evidence that I have a headache. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/112 "2024-04-11T16:58:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > A painful sensation in my head _is_ evidence that I have a headache. No. A painful sensation in your head _is_ a headache. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/113 "2024-04-11T16:59:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > A painful sensation in my head _is_ evidence that I have a headache. The disconnect here is, that’s evidence _for you._ It’s not evidence _for anyone else_. So it’s reasonable for you to conclude that you have a headache, but someone else is also reasonable in being skeptical of that claim. “Not tonight honey, I have a headache” being the old cliched example. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/114 "2024-04-11T17:00:17Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > A painful sensation in your head _is_ a headache. It could also be a bullet. I don’t think anyone would describe that as a “headache”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/115 "2024-04-11T17:02:29Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > A painful sensation in my head _is_ evidence that I have a headache. > > No. A painful sensation in your head _is_ a headache. Since a headache is an internal state, then having a headache is indeed evidence of a headache, yes. > [@Horatius](#): > > The disconnect here is, that’s evidence _for you._ It’s not evidence _for anyone else_. Sure, but my behavior may be evidence of a headache. Or it may not be. > [@Horatius](#): > > “Not tonight honey, I have a headache” being the old cliched I can control my behavior to put out false evidence, yes. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/116 "2024-04-11T17:03:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > A painful sensation in my head _is_ evidence that I have a headache. Ninja’d! Bloody hell 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/117 "2024-04-11T17:04:13Z")
And therein lies the difficulty with using personal experience to convince anyone else of God. I’ve known many Christian testimonies that were things like, 'I know God exists because my wife and I were headed for divorce but suddenly I had a change of heart and it must have come from God." Good for him, but he can’t persuade others with that story to believe in God because others didn’t experience it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/118 "2024-04-11T17:05:09Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > > > A painful sensation in your head _is_ a headache. > > It could also be a bullet. I don’t think anyone would describe that as a “headache”. You don’t think a person could wake up with what they think is a splitting headache, then as they open their eyes they realize they are in a hospital bed, they feel their head and find bandages, etc? Evidence - even internal evidence - can be misleading. Note that the headache itself _could be evidence of other things_. A headache could be evidence that you are prone to migranes, that you were shot in the head, that your hat is too tight, or that the music is too loud. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/119 "2024-04-11T17:07:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You don’t think a person could wake up with what they think is a splitting headache, then as they open their eyes they realize they are in a hospital bed, they feel their head and find bandages, etc? Evidence - even internal evidence - can be misleading. Well, yes, that’s my point. Once you see the bandages et al., you wouldn’t keep telling people you have “a headache”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/120 "2024-04-11T17:10:05Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Well, yes, that’s my point. Once you see the bandages et al., you wouldn’t keep telling people you have “a headache” You wake up with pain in your head. This is evidence of a headache. You open your eyes. You are in a hospital bed. You touch your head. Bloody bandages. This is evidence of a head injury rather than a simple headache, so you take this new information into consideration and amend your earlier conclusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=7)