# What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101 "2024-04-10T15:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/141 "2024-04-11T18:05:43Z")
Well, people say they don’t believe in God all the time, that’s entirely unremarkable. If a **fish** told me that it didn’t believe in something, that would definitely cause me to rethink my belief system! (probably starting with the belief “I don’t experience auditory hallucinations”) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/142 "2024-04-11T18:05:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You could very well know, “I have the experience of knowing with utter certainty that God exists”. And you could be 100% right about your subjective experience! And yet you could be wrong about that experience accurately reflecting reality. What, like with hallucinogens? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/143 "2024-04-11T18:07:44Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > If a **fish** told me that it didn’t believe in something, that would definitely cause me to rethink my belief system! > [@Sally](#): > > The fish is talking! > [@The Cat in the Hat](#): > > Well, sure, he can talk. But is he saying anything? No, not really. Chars ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/144 "2024-04-11T18:09:17Z")
Headaches are not supernatural. If you have a eadache, something is happening inside your body that could, given the right equipment, be physically measured. There will be evidence that a headache is occurring and if the phenomenon was studied in great enough detail, it would be possible to examine a person and say ‘this person appears to be experiencing a headache’, without them volunteering their opinion on the matter. The qualia of ‘pain’ in this context is subjective, but thats the same as the qualia of ‘pressure’ you might feel if you take your own pulse. It’s a thing you are experiencing, but it’s also a thing in its own right with measurable physical attributes. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/145 "2024-04-11T18:10:03Z")
I would never considering doing so. I can’t imagine what the point of such an exercise would be. But then, I’m a very odd Christian. I didn’t come to this religion by reason _or_ belief, and neither figures in my practice of it. To me, Christianity is just the costume which some of us use to clothe our understanding of the divine. It means little; even the concept of the Godhead is pathetically inadequate to the reality. But to reductionists, none of what I said makes any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/146 "2024-04-11T18:10:11Z")
(I think you might have missed some explanations of mine above.) > [@Babale](#): > > “Knowing” you have a headache just means that you are experiencing a sensation of pain in your head. Exactly. It does not mean concluding one has a headache from evidence to the effect. > [@Babale](#): > > You could certainly _have the sensation of **knowing** that God exists_; but there is absolutely no reason to think that this sensation would correspond to reality. Not what I mean. I’m not experience a sensation of ‘knowing that I have a headache’, which I agree could be faulty in its content—an illusion, again. I’m experiencing a headache, that’s it. In the same vein, I could ‘experience god’, or acquire knowledge of that sort via yet another means that is unique to divine beings. > [@Babale](#): > > I would argue that _it literally does make it un **reasonable** to believe_, because without evidence that belief is not based on **REASON**. Then again, you stand before the conclusion that believing anything is unreasonable: you’d need evidence for your evidence for your evidence for… etc. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/147 "2024-04-11T18:16:21Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But that sort of direct experiential knowledge _only_ applies to the question of our own subjective existence. We can’t reasonably claim to have the same sort of knowledge about the existence of anything else whatsoever. Yes: that one channel of non-evidential knowledge seems limited to our own experience. But I’m not aware of any argument that no other such channels could exist, ones perhaps reserved to the realm of the divine in the way this one is reserved to that of subjective experience. I strongly believe that nothing of the sort exists and would be glad for any sound argument to that effect, but I can’t envision what such an argument might look like. And on another note, on many belief systems, we’re not necessarily separate from god, so knowing our own inner nature and knowing god may not, in fact, be that different. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/148 "2024-04-11T18:17:26Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Then again, you stand before the conclusion that believing anything is unreasonable: you’d need evidence for your evidence for your evidence for… etc. Ultimately, having _absolute_ belief in anything other than your own existence IS unreasonable, since we can never completely reject the brain-in-a-jar hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/149 "2024-04-11T18:19:44Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > “Knowing” you have a headache just means that you are experiencing a sensation of pain in your head. > > Exactly. It does not mean concluding one has a headache from evidence to the effect. That’s because it is an internal experience. Evidence is not a valid concept on this context. How much does purple weigh? > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > In the same vein, I could ‘experience god’, or acquire knowledge of that sort via yet another means that is unique to divine beings. Pain is a sensation you can experience. So is green. So is the smell of sulfur. It is theoretically possible that there is some unique experience - “God” - that is somehow related to the Divine. Or it’s possible that there is no divinity, but you could still have that same exact experience and it would convince your monkey brain that you experienced the divine. It is also theoretically possible that there is a unique color that no one has ever seen, known as “Blurple”. It doesn’t correspond to any wavelengths of light, which is why no one has seen it, but our brains are capable of that sensation, and it’s the nicest color ever. None of that seems particularly profound or meaningful. > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Then again, you stand before the conclusion that believing anything is unreasonable: you’d need evidence for your evidence for your evidence for… etc. What? I have no idea what you are saying there. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/150 "2024-04-11T18:20:13Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Ultimately, having _absolute_ belief in anything other than your own existence IS unreasonable, since we can never completely reject the brain-in-a-jar hypothesis. I’m not talking about _absolute_ belief, however, but any belief at all. There’s no Bayesian updating if there’s no evidence to support or contradict a given hypothesis. And the above still concedes my point: there, the belief in one’s existence is one not due to evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/151 "2024-04-11T18:23:07Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > And the above still concedes my point: there, the belief in one’s existence is one not due to evidence. Of course it is. The fact that you experience things _is_ evidence of existence. It isn’t evidence that your experience is representative of the real world, but it _is_ evidence that you are a being that exists and can experience things. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/152 "2024-04-11T18:26:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s because it is an internal experience. Evidence is not a valid concept on this context. How much does purple weigh? OK, let’s back up. Do you think we know things about our experiences? Do you think we need evidence for that knowledge? > [@Babale](#): > > It is theoretically possible that there is some unique experience - “God” - that is somehow related to the Divine. Or it’s possible that there is no divinity, but you could still have that same exact experience and it would convince your monkey brain that you experienced the divine. Again, that confuses the fact of the experience with its content. I’m not talking about knowledge about what we have experience _of_, but about knowledge of that experience itself. So I’m not considering some particular ‘god’-experience, I say that knowledge of god may be like knowledge of experience, in that it’s not based on evidence. > [@Babale](#): > > What? I have no idea what you are saying there. Well, take the experiment-example again. You see the detector flash red or green, and you take that as evidence for (or against) a particular hypothesis. But now suppose that you’d need evidence, first, to support the hypothesis that you’re seeing red vs. green. Then either that evidence is itself knowable without further evidence—and such things exist, which is my position. Or, it needs evidence in turn—but then, you’ve just bumped the can down the road: evidence1 supports your experimental hypothesis, evidence2 your knowledge of evidence1, evidence3 your knowledge of evidence2, and so on, never bottoming out. In sum: some non-evidential knowledge is necessary to enable the possibility of evidential knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/153 "2024-04-11T18:30:27Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The fact that you experience things _is_ evidence of existence. It isn’t evidence that your experience is representative of the real world, but it _is_ evidence that you are a being that exists and can experience things. Again, this is just circular: I need to know that I exist before I can use that knowledge as evidence for my belief that I exist. Otherwise, how could I use it as evidence? Anyway, it seems we’re getting nowhere on this. It’s a quite simple point: if nothing can be known without evidence, then anything pointed to as evidence needs further evidence, and we’ll never know anything. But I’m afraid I can’t give any evidence for that. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/154 "2024-04-11T18:35:08Z")
You can’t be sure that a light is flashing red in the same sense that you can be sure you exist. It’s possible you’re dreaming and the light doesn’t exist at all, or that you’ve suddenly developed some sort of visual hallucinations. In the real world, of course, we discount these sorts of extremely unlikely possibilities and assume that the likeliest explanation is true, and it works out well almost all the time. The _only_ thing we can know for certain through direct experiential knowledge is that we exist, since by definition something that doesn’t exist can’t believe that it exists; there has to be _something_ doing the believing. Everything else we know we derive from evidence obtained from our potentially fallible sensory organs, so that sort of knowledge is necessarily less certain than the knowledge of our own existence, even if the different levels of certainty are irrelevant for all practical purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/155 "2024-04-11T18:43:42Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Do you think we know things about our experiences? Do you think we need evidence for that knowledge? How much does purple weigh? What color are five kilograms? This question makes no sense. When I have an experience, I have an experience; I know I am having that experience. These are most often essentially the same thing, although there are exceptions. For example, the phenomenon of “blindsight”, where a person who is cortically blind may react to things that he sees without the conscious experience of having seen the stimulus. Did a person with blindsight experience the ball tossed towards them? I would argue that they (where “they” are “their conscious mind”) did not, but they (where “they” is “the system of conscious and unconscious systems that make up a human being”) did. And the first “they” had the disconcerting experience of raising their arm without knowing why to grab a ball put of the air without knowing it was coming. > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > So I’m not considering some particular ‘god’-experience, I say that knowledge of god may be like knowledge of experience, in that it’s not based on evidence. Sure, that could be true. We have no reason to think so though. That may also be true of knowledge of kittens, knowledge of chocolate fudge brownies, or knowledge of karate. Or it may not. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/156 "2024-04-11T19:18:49Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > > > A painful sensation in your head _is_ a headache. > > It could also be a bullet. I don’t think anyone would describe that as a “headache”. It could be a headache caused by a bullet. But a bullet is not a headache. It’s the pain that’s a headache. > [@Horatius](#): > > Once you see the bandages et al., you wouldn’t keep telling people you have “a headache”. I strongly suspect that when they asked how I felt at least part of my answer would be ‘I have an awful headache.’ ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/157 "2024-04-11T20:20:14Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > This discussion seems be more about grammar than about the fundamental nature of knowledge. That drove Nietzsche into despair too: “Die »Vernunft« in der Sprache: o was für eine alte betrügerische Weibsperson! Ich fürchte, wir werden Gott nicht los, weil wir noch an die Grammatik glauben…” (_ **Götzendämerung oder Wie man mit dem Hammer philosophirt** _, 2. Die ‘Vernunft’ in der Filosophie, Aphorismus 5) translation: “»Reason« in language: oh what a deceitful old woman! I fear we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar…” _ **Twilight of the Idols, or, How to Philosophize with a Hammer** _ Part 2: ‘Reason’ in Philosophy, Aphorism 5 > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Modern science has given us the big bang theory, but that can’t explain why the big bang happened, or what preceded it; it does, however, offer an internally consistent explanation of why we _can’t_ know these things, because the information we’d need to figure it out doesn’t exist in this universe. I think it was Spinoza who already asked the right the question: “Why is there something instead of nothing?” For this thread that could be restated as: “Do you need god to answer that question?” To which I would add: “If yes, why?” For the record: I don’t know the answer to the question, but I refuse to resort to the god-hypothesis. It feels cheap and lazy to me. Anyway: Funny where the missing-in-inaction OP has led us. I am beginning to suspect he did not mean the opening question seriously at all and he may be laughing at how far his teasing has brought us. That is cheap and lazy too. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/158 "2024-04-12T00:00:05Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > And how do you know it is something supernatural or miraculous, as opposed to very advanced technology? I would believe something was caused by aliens, or human super-villain scientists inside a volcano, before I would believe it was caused by deities. I’ll take that challenge! You need to understand that before I found the Lord, I was a complete social misfit. Because I was too damned smart for my own good, I was moved from first grade to second grade three weeks into my first year of school (this was before public kindergarten), found myself an outsider there, and that pretty much defined the next decade: on good days, I was just a reject; on bad days, I was bullied. I had the occasional friend, but they were few and far between. Most years, I had zero friends. None. I still can only look back at the change that happened when I found the Lord, grin, and say, “impossible.” How was it that I suddenly began to see what was beautiful in the people around me when all had been opaque to me before, and how was it that I found myself reaching out and connecting with people, making friendships that lasted years? Yeah, I’d still call that a miracle, more than half a century later. My point here isn’t that my tale should be regarded as proof of a miracle: if you weren’t there to observe the change (or have it freakin’ _happen_ to you! 😃), of course this proves nothing. It doesn’t and shouldn’t prove to anyone else that God even exists, let alone that this actually happened. I’m just taking up the challenge about advanced technology or aliens. Whatever this was - if this _was_ a miracle - it had nothing to do with either of those things. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/159 "2024-04-12T00:08:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I still can only look back at the change that happened when I found the Lord, grin, and say, “impossible.” How was it that I suddenly began to see what was beautiful in the people around me when all had been opaque to me before, and how was it that I found myself reaching out and connecting with people, making friendships that lasted years? When you “found the Lord” did you do it all on your own, or did it involve a church/religious group that held out a hand when you were at your lowest, with little self-esteem? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101/160 "2024-04-12T01:57:23Z")
Had He been behind the couch all along? He’s always in the last place you look! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-arguments-would-you-use-to-convince-someone-that-god-really-does-exist/1000101.md?page=9)