What arguments would you use to convince someone that God really does exist?

We must be using different definitions of “precisely”.

Name one. Quote the original prophesy, tell us approximately when it was made, then tell us the event that fulfilled it.

So your theory is that these people just happen to be more stubbornly committed to their religion than any other people in history? That in itself would suggest that maybe there’s some difference between their religion and the others, wouldn’t it?

It’s not like we’re dealing with a small sample size; “tiny nation gets swallowed up by big empire” is a constant motif throughout history, yet there’s only one singular example of a nation successfully maintaining their identity through centuries of exile.

And although the events of 1948 add further evidence, the survival of the Jews through thousands of years of exile, often under harshly oppressive conditions, was already a historically unique event, so the re-establishment of Israel isn’t essential to the argument.

Well, now you’re moving the goalposts. Nobody said anything about convincing people that God isn’t a horrific asshole! :wink: But the existence of sickness, injustice and death in the world should have already tipped you off to that.

This is the fallacy that a survivor is special, not just lucky. Now we had the advantage of being isolated by the Christian majority. If they had been more welcoming the current assimilation process would have happened long ago.

Consider for example Deuteronomy 29, when Moses addresses Israel and warns them of various horrific disasters that will come to pass in the event that they fail to obey God’s Law. Chapter 30 adds a bit of consolation, confirming that even if Israel incurs such punishment, they will always be forgiven and get to return to the Land eventually. In 31:16ff, God confirms to Moses that the Israelites will in fact backslide and be punished with exile. And the exile and return subsequently came to pass! Clearly miraculous prophecy, right?

Well, not really. The counterargument is that those passages are obviously talking about the Babylonian exile, which had already happened when they were written. The author was a mere political propagandist, inventing retrospective “prophecies” of disaster befalling Israel in order to put his own explanation of the causes of those disasters into God’s mouth. On the other hand, it’s notable that the prophecies did proceed to come true again when the Romans exiled Israel. I’m not going to claim that it’s completely implausible that that could be mere coincidence, but it would be quite a coincidence.

The trouble with prophecies is that Biblical prophecies are fuzzy at best. The prediction/prophecy of what the cosmic microwave background radiation would be if the Big Bang theory was correct was precise, and was precisely measured. Some of the supposed predictions for Jesus work only if you convert weeks to years or something and start from some more or less arbitrary date.
If the Bible or other holy book got facts about the natural world, like the size and age of the universe or the earth, right, it would not be proof of god since they might have learned it from aliens. But it would be a lot more convincing than what we have today.

You can’t go wrong with an “Something bad is going to happen” prophecy… especially when it is open ended. If nothing happens, it’s going to happen in the future.
Do you have any prophecies that are actually precise?

If there are only a few survivors of such a historic process, we could say they got lucky. For there to be exactly one survivor, it raises the possibility that there’s something else going on. Jews have lived in lots of places where we faced constant threats of torture and murder for practicing our religion, and in lots of other places where we were treated well and had every opportunity to assimilate. Neither the carrot nor the stick have ever been completely effective.

I’m going to guess that they aren’t the only non-assimilated, identity-preserving group on earth. They’re just the group whose story has been pulled into the story that we know best - the one about US.

I haven’t gone looking for other groups and I’m pretty sure you (general) haven’t either.

Nope. I told you this wouldn’t convince a skeptic.

But you’re exaggerating by reducing it to “something bad is going to happen”. It’s specifically predicting military defeat, followed by exile, followed by a triumphant return.

So, you’re going to guess that if you bothered to look for evidence, you’d find some. Taking that on faith, are you? :slight_smile:

My faith in humans mistaking themselves for the center of the universe is vast.

Again, that is an open-ended prophesy that cannot be proven wrong.

I think this sort of discussion is usually hampered by an unspoken, and unquestioned, assumption that we acquire knowledge (or belief) only through argument and/or evidence. But most of our beliefs aren’t like that. If I believe I have a headache, I didn’t reason myself into that position, nor did I collect evidence to support it: I simply have a headache. There’s no way to further ground this knowledge, and no prospect of questioning it—I can’t really be wrong about having a headache, if I feel like I have one, then I do. In fact, that’s what grounds all our knowledge: our evidence is rooted in experience of that evidence, which then itself can’t be similarly grounded on pain of circularity—you know that, for instance, the sun rises in the morning because you’ve seen it rise; but ‘seeing it rise’ is again just something you know yourself to have experienced. (Of course, the content of such experiences can be false or misleading, as in hallucinations or carefully constructed deceptions, but that doesn’t lessen the mere fact of that experience, just invalidates further conclusions drawn from it.)

So there are evidently ways of knowing that don’t rely on argument or evidence, and nevertheless produce robust knowledge. If there is a god, then it perhaps they could make themself known in a similar way—a particular kind of revelation that lets you know them the way you know your migraine. Then, of course, trying to convince somebody else of that would be just as pointless as trying to convince them they have a headache: it won’t work unless they already do.

Maybe there are some (‘chosen’) people that actually have such knowledge of god. Doubtlessly, there are loads that believe they do, but are wrong. I don’t have either, so I have no belief in god; but that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe because of lack of evidence, or lack of convincing arguments: it may be reasonable to believe even in the face of such an absence.

The Basque people disagree.

Self-fulfilling prophecies are a mighty thing indeed, by Jove!

What you call specifical sounds like a typical adventure movie plot. It may make you proud but it does not prove anything at all.

If you have a headache, that is evidence that you have a headache. That would not be an argument, it would be a fact. I, of course, would have to take your word for it. I cannot know whether you have a headache or not (leaving diagnostic machines like MRT aside).
If Godott made a public miracle, it would not be an argument either: it would be evidence too (after trying to falsify it to the best of our abilities). Infering that the sun will rise tomorrow because it has done so every day so far is a logically very different proposition: for that there is no evidence, there is a physical model (Newton and so on) and a strog case for induction based on experience. A miracle and induction are not comparable IMO.

Does your head ache? There’s your evidence.

This sounds like Larry Niven’s God Gambit. Members of a sufficiently advanced alien civilisation could replicate miracles and other phenomena that would convince members of a less advanced civilisation that they are gods. This strategy (the God Gambit) might even be a commonplace and convenient way for alien civilisations at different levels of sophistication to interact with each other; a prospect that sounds extremely disturbing.

If there really are sufficiently advanced civilisations out there capable of spoofing less capable cultures in order to make them subservient or pliable, that would be just another cosmic horror that we may have to thank God for, assuming She exists.

Heh.

  • Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay

So Superman is proof that God exists?

Does one survivor “raise the possibility” twice as high as two survivors? How does the math work on this?

Tim Minchin has some thoughts on the matter. (NB: contains swearing)

Superman is a borderline Jew!