# What Ark? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 15, 2006, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475 "2006-11-15T01:53:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SkiDemon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@SkiDemon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkiDemon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/21 "2006-11-15T09:18:32Z")
You know…I read in " Chariots of the Gods" that the people who hypothesize that our religions were born out of contact, with aliens hypothesize that the AOC was kind of a walkie talkie to God. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/22 "2006-11-15T14:52:09Z")
Here’s [What happened to the Ark of the Covenant?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/marc.html) ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/23 "2006-11-15T15:19:48Z")
Post 1: [QUOTE=deputyd2] holding no animosities, grudges, or malice toward others for their thoughts. [/QUOTE] Post 5: [QUOTE=deputyd2] The things you hear about in the bible are rather idiotic, but, they are there to make you believe them when you hear your pastor/rabbi/priest/ etc. tell you in his way so that you live in a world of fear that you’re going to hell(another farce), heaven, or pugatory. If you care to, I can tell you much more than they tell you…just to hold you in that “heavenly hell” or place of punishment for your original sin which , of course is another lie. [/QUOTE] That sure didn’t last long. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/24 "2006-11-15T15:20:35Z")
[QUOTE=deputyd2] I am an atheist now for about seven years, and have studied very hard about atheism…I don’t have all the answers. [/Quote] What’s to study? The test is “Do you believe there is a G\*d?” If you answer “NO” then you are an atheist and there’s nothing else to learn. 😛 > [@](#): > > Prior to my becoming an atheist I had been a baptist, presbyterian, church of chr **t, and pentacostal’ and thought I was the best chr** tian that ever was. I spoke in tongues(HA), praised g\*d every waking moment. Most of that would definitely tend to mess with your mind. :eek: > [@](#): > > But NO prayer was ever answered. I’ve through gall bladder surgery, two aortic abdominal anuerisms(almost died on the table the second one).Then the next five years trying to get rid of prostate cancer. Do you think that phony g_d gave me any relief ? Not in this lifetime where there are NO g_ds, never were. Perhaps you should study the Book of Job. :smack: > [@](#): > > My wife was catholic 'til 1973, when she saw the “light”, and started studying atheism. She saw the light 27 years before you did. What took you so long? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/25 "2006-11-15T15:28:27Z")
Atheism isn’t a belief. If you’ve reached some sort of enlightenment then you might want to reconsider how honest you’re being with yourself. God probably was just made up by humans, so if you think it best to disregard the whole thing then certainly, but going about sputtering in your non-belief rather belies your “un-belief.” ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/26 "2006-11-15T15:46:16Z")
_ **Semi-Hijack** _ What happened to Spielburg’s Ark. From _Raiders_? The prop used in the film? And are replicas for sale, scale or otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/27 "2006-11-15T16:04:26Z")
[QUOTE=deputyd2] Thanks, Diogenes, for the heads up…I am an atheist now for about seven years, and have studied very hard about atheism…I don’t have all the answers. Prior to my becoming an atheist I had been a baptist, presbyterian, church of chr\*\*t, and pentacostal’ and… [/QUOTE] Gotta say it really does sound like atheism is just your latest obsession. What is it about atheism that you think requires diligent study? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/28 "2006-11-15T16:34:14Z")
> [@](#): > > What happened to Spielburg’s Ark. From Raiders? The prop used in the film? I’ll bet it really _is_ sitting in a crate in a big warehouse, somewhere. The ultimate in irony. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/29 "2006-11-15T16:43:39Z")
The details of it’s construction make it doubtless to me there really was an Ark (’-R-W-N), at one time. What it contained, and how “Holy” it really was- is another matter. Ancient Dudes made Holy items, and even wrote about them. Plenty of said holy items have been found. There is no reason at all to not accept that at one time the Ancient Isrealites had a gold-covered wood box \*that they considered \* Holy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/30 "2006-11-15T16:51:59Z")
I think a lot of born again athiests ( 😛 ) take the more fanatical view about the bible…sort of going to the opposite extreme from their previous religious views. While its true that ‘just because its in the bible’ doesn’t necessarily mean something is true, the converse of ‘just because its in the bible’ means its automatically false is also incorrect. The bible has been shown to have some serious gaps, flaws and other errata…but that doesn’t mean its ALL wrong, false or incorrect either. It is what it is…an oral history compiled at some point from various traditions and stories floating about and seasoned with a certain deliberate slant. Take what it says with a large grain of salt…but don’t go overboard with it. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/31 "2006-11-15T17:10:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] What happened to Spielburg’s Ark. From _Raiders_? The prop used in the film? [/QUOTE] It was reclaimed by George Burns, who then brought it back to the sound stage from “Heaven Can Wait.” ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/32 "2006-11-15T17:22:43Z")
[QUOTE=CKDextHavn’s Staff Report] English translations of the Bible can lead to confusion, since the word “ark” is used for both the Ark of the Covenant (a box or chest) and Noah’s Ark (a boat). The original Hebrew text uses different words: the Ark of the Covenant is '-R-W-N (“aron”) while Noah’s Ark is T-B-H (“tabah”), so there is no linguistic relation between the two. And Joan of Arc, of course, is completely different. [/quote] This is the closing remark in C K Dexter Haven’s staff report and I’m curious about it. Do the two words '-R-W-N and T-B-H mean the same thing in Hebrew or did an English translator screw up? ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/33 "2006-11-15T17:24:59Z")
I don’t find it hard to believe that the Ark existed, although the circumstances of its construction as related in the Bible are questionable, to say the least. I think it entirely reasonable that a reliquary of some sort was constructed by a tribe, survived a few hundred years (not all that long, after all, except to Americans), was installed in the Jerusalem temple, and was either lost or destroyed by the Babylonians. I’m not at all sure why it matters whether it existed or not, though. Any ceremonial purpose the ark might have be used for have been moribund for millenia. Jews are quite content to have the ten (out of 613) commandments supposedly held by the ark down on paper. Christians, well, I really don’t know what Christians are up to, but I know that the Ark doesn’t come up too often. Regarding the OP, it would seem to me to be more productive to try to find out what you think is true, rather than rage against what you think is false. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/34 "2006-11-15T17:54:06Z")
[QUOTE=Merneith] This is the closing remark in C K Dexter Haven’s staff report and I’m curious about it. Do the two words '-R-W-N and T-B-H mean the same thing in Hebrew or did an English translator screw up? [/QUOTE] No, it’s just that the letter combo “a-r-k” in English means “big box”. _“Etymology: Middle English, from Old English arc, from Latin arca chest; akin to Latin arcEre to hold off, defend, Greek arkein, Hittite hark- to have, hold”_ Both the “Ark of the Covenant” and “Noah’s ark” are boxes\*. We keep the word “Ark” in these usages as it’s rare. We could say “Noah’s box” and the “Box of the Covenant” but they don’t sound as cool. - read the description- Noah wasn’t building a ship so much as a big floating box. It’s wasn’t designed to maneuver, sail or navigate. (yes, I know the story of Noah is a myth) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/35 "2006-11-15T18:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=Merneith] This is the closing remark in C K Dexter Haven’s staff report and I’m curious about it. Do the two words '-R-W-N and T-B-H mean the same thing in Hebrew or did an English translator screw up? [/QUOTE] It goes back a lot further than the English translators. For some reason, the Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew bible into the Greek Septuagint used the same word, _kibôtos_ / [symbol]kibwtos[/symbol] to represent both _'-R-W-N_ and _T-B-H_. Later, when Jerome translated the bible into Latin, he followed the same pattern, using the Latin _arcam_ in both meanings. (I do not know whether there had been an interim use of a “common” word in Aramaic that might have influenced both the translators of the Septuagint and Jerome.) Even before the early translations of the bible into English, of course, there were “bible stories” and sermons that made reference to both the ark of Noah and the Ark of the Covenant, so the Latin _arcam_ had already been introduced into English (with a lot of different spellings that eventually resovled into “ark”). So when the translators of the KVJ or the Douai-Rheims, (and even Tyndale before them) went to put the passages into English, they used the word with which the majority of (illiterate) people would have already been familiar rather than coming up with a new word and confusing people. Ark meaning the chest (along with _kibôtos_ / [symbol]kibwtos[/symbol] and _arcam_) seems to be the “standard” word while applying it to Noah’s vessel seems to be the exception in all three languages (Greek, Latin, English). Interestingly, the KJV also used “ark” to indicate the basket of bulrushes into which Moses was placed. I would speculate that that was also a carryover from popular bible stories (of unknown provenance) because that translation is not supported by either the Greek or the Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/36 "2006-11-15T18:12:04Z")
[QUOTE=Merneith] This is the closing remark in C K Dexter Haven’s staff report and I’m curious about it. Do the two words '-R-W-N and T-B-H mean the same thing in Hebrew or did an English translator screw up? [/QUOTE] _aron_, the word used for the Ark of the Covenant, means “chest” or “box.” _Tebah_, the word used for Noah’s ark, seems to have a more obscure etymology. It’s also the word used for the basket which is used to save baby Moses. Maybe “vessel” would be an accurate rendering? Hopefully one of our Hebrew scholars can help. I’m much better with Greek and Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/37 "2006-11-15T18:13:39Z")
[QUOTE=flickster] Isn’t it stored away inside a shipping crate in some vast military warehouse??? [/QUOTE] Yeah, it’s being reviewed by Top Men. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/38 "2006-11-15T18:17:21Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Can I vote for the ‘B’ Ark? [/QUOTE] Nobody is interested in your dogma here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/39 "2006-11-15T18:58:47Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The dating of the Torah and the Deuteronomic histories are extremely uncertain and hotly debated. Certainly the consensus is that some form of the Torah existed before the Captivity but the development of the Torah is so layered and multiply redacted (I’m sure you’re familiar with the documentary Hypothesis) and took place over such a length of time. The Minimalist theory is that the entire Torah is post-exilic but Finkelstein and Silberman (my go-to source of the moment) claim that it’s mostly 7th Century but underwent a final redaction after the exile. My opinion that the Ark was given a mythic history after the exile follows Minimalist thinking, but it’s only one hypothesis and I present it only as my opinion. [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t it be reasonable that some of the mythic history had been invented by priests before being written down? Keeping the riffraff out of the Holy of Holies was considered very important, and this could have been some of it. This is all a part of a question I’ve had for some time - how much of the history was invented by the writers of the Torah, and how much was written and redacted from legends already extant? It seems unlikely they could have sprung a history written from scratch, but it seems likely that the dialogs between Patriarch and God could have been invented. How much of the contradictory versions of stories come from politically opposed sources, and how much comes from different strands of legends that the redactors felt needed to be included? Good application of a time machine - recording oral history. ---
**Author:** ![blowhard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@blowhard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowhard)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475/40 "2006-11-15T23:38:43Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Of course, we all know [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Our_Lady_Mary_of_Zion) is where the Ark is, only they’re not allowed to show it to anybody. [/QUOTE] If they let in guided tours would that make their claim any more accurate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-ark/380475.md?page=3)