# What atheists think, and why (in re: GEEPERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150 "2012-04-27T16:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![IntelliQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e99b99/32.png) [@IntelliQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IntelliQ)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/461 "2012-05-10T20:08:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s like having the powers of The Human Torch, but restricting yourself to lighting birthday cake candles when no one is watching. We have a quote winner. Bravo. Stealing it to rib a good Christian friend of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/462 "2012-05-10T22:04:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s like having the powers of The Human Torch, but restricting yourself to lighting birthday cake candles when no one is watching. Well said! ---
**Author:** ![BunnyTVS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BunnyTVS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyTVS)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/463 "2012-05-10T22:34:13Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Actions speak louder than words, and atheist’s actions demonstrate a deep hatred of Christianity. You can’t even admit that Jesus teachings are good and pure. > > As for miracle cites, since you demonstrated clearly a refusal to even consider evidence, it would be pointless. However, Dr. Sean George was kind enough to reply personally to my inquiry: > > _Thanks for your email. I have not yet published it on a medical journal, however I have my own website www.seangeorge.com.au. On the website you will find all the medical details including the defibrillator logs, ECG, blood test and video testimony of a highly reputed Senior Emergency Physician Dr Steve Dungey from Royal Perth Hospital. I should publish it, and will make every effort to do so. It has been published in the West Australian twice and this is on the website as well. The case has been presented in national and international Emergency Medicine conferences in Australia and Japan. I personally have been interviewed by radio and television. Tomorrow I will be appearing on Channel 9 at 5:30 am AEST on a program called Wesley Impact with Dr Keith Garner._ > Again, this is the testimony of a man who was dead for 90 minutes and is alive today. Let me guess, you are going to suggest that he conspired with other medical staff to fabricate the tests and documentation, huh? > > To deny divine healing is to deny reality. Amazing! A man was kept alive for an hour and a half by highly trained medical staff and equipment designed _to do exactly that_. A couple of things puzzle me. Firstly I couldn’t see any ECGs taken during the time he was ‘dead’. Secondly I couldn’t see any records of brain activity during his time in hospital at all. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/464 "2012-05-10T22:56:44Z")
> [@BunnyTVS](#): > > Amazing! A man was kept alive for an hour and a half by highly trained medical staff and equipment designed _to do exactly that_. A couple of things puzzle me. Firstly I couldn’t see any ECGs taken during the time he was ‘dead’. Secondly I couldn’t see any records of brain activity during his time in hospital at all. The lack of brain activity seems to be spreading outside the hospital, to our very doorstep. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/465 "2012-05-10T23:23:13Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Again, this is the testimony of a man who was dead for 90 minutes and is alive today. Let me guess, you are going to suggest that he conspired with other medical staff to fabricate the tests and documentation, huh? > > To deny divine healing is to deny reality. Why would god save this one guy while letting so many others die? And really, since god created the universe, he causes all those deaths, including this one, where he apparently changed his mind? And don’t give me any of that “unknowable will of god” nonsense. If you expect people to believe in a deity the idea should at least make some logical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/466 "2012-05-11T00:07:48Z")
> [@BunnyTVS](#): > > Amazing! A man was kept alive for an hour and a half by highly trained medical staff and equipment designed _to do exactly that_. A couple of things puzzle me. Firstly I couldn’t see any ECGs taken during the time he was ‘dead’. Secondly I couldn’t see any records of brain activity during his time in hospital at all. Also, the web page says: > [@](#): > > …after 1 hour and 10 minutes they all agreed I had died and all life support except oxygen to the lungs was terminated. Is it normal to continue ventilation after death has been declared? I know it may be if organ harvesting is planned, but in that case, don’t they also artificially maintain circulation too? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/467 "2012-05-11T01:22:54Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > And don’t give me any of that “unknowable will of god” nonsense. If you expect people to believe in a deity the idea should at least make some logical sense. Or more specifically; if your god is so unknowable, then by definition you can’t say that it’s good or worth following. It’s funny to hear Christians talk like they are worshiping Cthulhu. Of course, in reality they are almost always hypocrites; they only talk about the supposed unknowability of their god as long as it takes to deflect criticism. Then they go right back to proclaiming all the things they claim to know about what their god is like and what it wants. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/468 "2012-05-11T02:06:58Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Why would god save this one guy while letting so many others die? And really, since god created the universe, he causes all those deaths, including this one, where he apparently changed his mind? > > And don’t give me any of that “unknowable will of god” nonsense. If you expect people to believe in a deity the idea should at least make some logical sense. Romans 6:23 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/469 "2012-05-11T02:27:56Z")
I’m guessing this thread has run off the rails but I find Marley’s questions interesting. “Why are you an atheist?” This is a harder question to answer than I would have thought because I have no simple or pat response. I have never really had a moment where I thought “well, there we go, there’s no such thing as God.” I was raised in a very casual Catholic family - sent to Catholic schools and it was nominally our family position, but we didn’t bother going to church - and to be honest I don’t ever recall a time when I honestly believed, with certainty, that God existed. Eventually I just realized, meh, there’s no God. The idea seems absurd to me, to be honest. The major religions just strike me as being absolutely preposterous fairy tales. Why I think that when many do not, I cannot precisely explain; I believe it’s due to my family really not caring about it, but then many people in similar situations claim to believe, so maybe it wasn’t that. “People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn’t that suggest they’re on to something?” I don’t really think this question proceeds from a true premise; the various distinct religions are, in fact, wildly dissimilar. There is very little commonality between Roman traditional religion and the Abrahamic religions, or between Hinduism and the animist beliefs of the Iroquois. “Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?” As answered above, no. “Are you angry at god?” It seems obvious that one cannot hate that which is not exist but I think this, and the next question, sort of mean “are you an atheist due to a grudge or a bad personal experience.” The answer is no. I’ve never had a bad personal experience related to religion. My Catholic schooling was perfectly good and devoid of any tales of abuse - Catholic schools in Ontario are just public schools with a Catholic tinge, really. I’ve never had a major traumatic experience where I felt God failed me or anything like that. “Do you hate religion?” I find it hard to parse this question. I admit I dislike religion and dislike what it does to people, which is quite often remarkably negative. I’m not sure “hate” is something you can have for a concept. “Do you think religion is evil?” I think it’s a pretty bad influence. “Evil” is a trait a sapient being has. “Do you think religious people are stupid?” It is self-evidently the case that many, many intelligent people are religious. I think religious fervour tends to be directly proportional to ignorance; the religious people I know who are also smart have a religious faith that is examined, liberal, and well understood. In my experience people whose religious faith amounts to My Pastor Says It So It Must Be True are generally stupid. However, the fact remains that I know very smart people who are religious, and so the answer to the question as it is phrased must be “no.” This does not mean I respect religious belief as bieng equal to truth. My friend Steve attends church every Sunday. Steve is a very, very smart guy whose religious belief is for himself and imposed on nobody else, but the fact is he’s worshipping a fairy tale. “Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?” It would be great if I could wave a magic wand and make religion go away. As practical matter, however, trying to get rid of religion would result in World War Three and would require a level of evil and violence to achieve that exceeds the evils of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/470 "2012-05-11T02:36:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “Do you hate religion?” > > I find it hard to parse this question. I admit I dislike religion and dislike what it does to people, which is quite often remarkably negative. I’m not sure “hate” is something you can have for a concept. Racism, sexism and authoritarianism are concepts; plenty of people hate those. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/471 "2012-05-11T03:20:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Racism, sexism and authoritarianism are concepts; plenty of people hate those. Does it even make sense to reify concepts into concrete objects to which emotions like hate can be applied? If it does, why should I hate the concept (say) of racism? Considered as an _abstraction_ racism never discriminated against, or lynched, or enslaved anyone. (Or, in honor of mother’s day: I don’t love the concept “mother”, I love _my mother_.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/472 "2012-05-11T03:56:11Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Does it even make sense to reify concepts into concrete objects to which emotions like hate can be applied? If it does, why should I hate the concept (say) of racism? Considered as an _abstraction_ racism never discriminated against, or lynched, or enslaved anyone. Yes it has. Racism and religion are not _neutral, passive_ concepts like “the color blue”; they make judgments and demands. They impel behavior and distort judgment. And “purely abstract” racism or religion doesn’t exist; they are either written down or in human brains. They are no more abstract than a virus is. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/473 "2012-05-11T03:59:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Racism, sexism and authoritarianism are concepts; plenty of people hate those. I suppose they think they do but I’m not sure that’s how I define “hate.” People can’t even agree on what the word “racism” means, actually; it’s a matter of shockingly broad and vigorous debate. “Religion” is just so broad a term that I don’t understand how a sane person could say they hate it. I could see someone having hatred for, say, a particular faith, or church, or situation, but for a generic concept? “Racism” isn’t a good analogy, really; it’s more like hating “discrimination,” which would include things one obviously cannot reasonably oppose, like legally treating children as being different from adults. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/474 "2012-05-11T05:09:14Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I have not yet published it on a medical journal, however I have my own website www.seangeorge.com.au. > > It has been published in the West Australian twice and this is on the website as well. The case has been presented in national and international Emergency Medicine conferences in Australia and Japan. I personally have been interviewed by radio and television. Tomorrow I will be appearing on Channel 9 at 5:30 am AEST on a program called Wesley Impact with Dr Keith Garner.\* Well as an Aussie I have some views on this. 1: The WA paper is fit for toilet paper at best. It is a tabloid in a broadsheet disguise. 2: Wesley Impact is a freaken fundy christian show! A website, so it must be true! Ok cool about presenting but as anyone knows anyone can present at these. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/475 "2012-05-11T06:31:53Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Romans 6:23 This appears to be neither the Jesus teaching we’re supposed to agree with nor the evidence of miraculous healing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/476 "2012-05-11T06:52:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “Religion” is just so broad a term that I don’t understand how a sane person could say they hate it. It’s only “broad” the way a term like “virus” or “plague” is broad. They may differ in the details but they are all much the same aside from that. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/477 "2012-05-11T08:32:44Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” And this is a relevant response how? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/478 "2012-05-11T08:56:10Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” > > And this is a relevant response how? I think I can see some froth forming.. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/479 "2012-05-11T10:12:49Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Romans 6:23 Gifts are given freely by the giver. If you must beg or otherwise earn it, then it is no longer a gift. ---
**Author:** ![BunnyTVS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BunnyTVS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyTVS)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/480 "2012-05-11T10:58:59Z")
> [@BunnyTVS](#): > > Amazing! A man was kept alive for an hour and a half by highly trained medical staff and equipment designed _to do exactly that_. A couple of things puzzle me. Firstly I couldn’t see any ECGs taken during the time he was ‘dead’. Secondly I couldn’t see any records of brain activity during his time in hospital at all. > [@Mangetout](#): > > Also, the web page says: > > Is it normal to continue ventilation after death has been declared? I know it may be if organ harvesting is planned, but in that case, don’t they also artificially maintain circulation too? Hell is it normal to inject adrenaline 22 minutes after ‘everyone’ thinks your dead? Oh and I forgot to throw in the fact that if they were defibrillating during that first hour or so the patient had to be alive. Defibrillation only works on a heart that is still beating (although beating incorrectly). This narrows his ‘death’ down to 37 minutes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150.md?page=25)