# What atheists think, and why (in re: GEEPERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150 "2012-04-27T16:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/121 "2012-04-30T13:59:08Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Typical atheist copout. How come Christians have to do all the work? lol Because the Christians are the ones making the assertion that something exists. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Translation - umm no we can’t explain it , but we still want to creat the illusion that we are intellectually superior to Christians. No, we can explain it just fine, and just did. Millions of Americans believe in something false, because it is a popular false belief. But them believing it doesn’t make it true; prayer never, ever makes anyone heal faster. > [@beanieboy](#): > > What about the old saying there are no atheists in a fox hole at a time when yoour but is depending on religion why do atheists call out to god That’s just a slander against unbelievers, and self delusion on the part of the believers. They love to claim that atheists convert on their deathbeds and so forth; probably in part because the dead atheist can’t contradict them. And yelling “god” when hurt isn’t any more meaningful than yelling “fuck”; cultural conditioning as said, that’s the sort of thing people blurt out when hurt or startled. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/122 "2012-04-30T14:10:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No I don’t; you have to provide evidence that they are true. Strong evidence, since fraud is so rampant in such cases. It’s not my responsibility to try to prove billions of negatives. A testimony claim of healing supported by a doctor is EVIDENCE. I even posted a story with X-ray images showing the healing, but no that’s not good enough. Medical records wouldn’t be good enough. Nothing will satisfy you because you simply can’t accept the possibility of divine healing. As I said before, there is always a way to deny that ANY event ever occured like the landing on the moon. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Suuuure it will. And they’ll teleport to and from the conference by prayer, too. This is the kind of crap that I find infuriating about atheists. You haven’t even been to the conference and already laugh it off. It proves just how intellectually dishonest atheists really are once you get past the smoke and mirrors. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, atheists\* can offer _actual medical treatments that work_, instead of tricking people into relying on faith and dying. From my personal experiences, I find most medical treatments not that effective. They certainly didn’t fix my back pain. I was healed spiritually when I was able to let go of the fear of chronic pain. Most treatments involve drugs that can cause known and unknown side effects. Even ibuprofen can damage the liver. All surgeries carry a degree of risk. A person with nerve pain will quickly learn just how powerless neurologists are. They rely on EMG testing which can give false readings. They certainly couldn’t do jack for my cubital tunnel syndrome, and absolutely nothing for my tinnitus. Exams and tests can be inffective. Doctors nowdays are not even sure if clogged arteries are a direct cause of a heart attack event. MRI’s can give false readings, and doctors are just now even addressing the reality of chronic pain with few options to treat it. Sorry, but atheists offer little hope for a patient. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/123 "2012-04-30T14:14:15Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Also from the article: > > "According to a Newsweek poll, 84% of Americans said that ‘praying for others’ can have a positive effect on their recovery.” > > How do you explain that one if I’m so wrong? [Praying doesn’t help sick people get better.](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all) The fact that people think it helps is a matter of opinion. I can understand why people find it comforting, but that doesn’t mean it does anything. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Typical atheist copout. How come Christians have to do all the work? lol Every time someone who is arguing with you posts a cite, you say it doesn’t count because it’s more bias from the nasty atheists. Why _shouldn’t_ you do the work? You’re the one who has said your deity is real and heals people and that evolution can’t explain complexity and so on. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/124 "2012-04-30T14:15:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because the Christians are the ones making the assertion that something exists. And atheists are boldly claiming that it is 100% wrong without even bothering to fully investigate the claims. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, we can explain it just fine, and just did. Millions of Americans believe in something false, because it is a popular false belief. But them believing it doesn’t make it true; prayer never, ever makes anyone heal faster. See above. There are countless reports that demonstrate that prayer certainly aided in the healing. Simply stating that it’s not true without any backing support for your claim is completely baseless and intellectually dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/125 "2012-04-30T14:18:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Praying doesn’t help sick people get better.](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all) The fact that people think it helps is a matter of opinion. I can understand why people find it comforting, but that doesn’t mean it does anything. > Every time someone who is arguing with you posts a cite, you say it doesn’t count because it’s more bias from the nasty atheists. Why _shouldn’t_ you do the work? You’re the one who has said your deity is real and heals people and that evolution can’t explain complexity and so on. Because you are in the minority. If you are going to convice the majority that we are all suffering from mental delusions including highly intelligent Christian doctors, the onus is on you to freaking support your assertion for once. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/126 "2012-04-30T14:19:18Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > From my personal experiences, I find most medical treatments not that effective. They certainly didn’t fix my back pain. You hear that, medical science? It’s time to give up. **GEEPERS** is not convinced you work. Sorry, people with cancer and kidney transplant patients! We’re going to go in another direction. You might find it a little medieval, but you’ll thank us later. Medical science is not an atheist thing, of course. Most religious believers are smart enough to turn to medical science when they are sick, and so are most atheists. How does that play into the ‘if enough people believe it it can’t be wrong’ argument? The fact that doctors can’t cure every single illness in every person doesn’t mean something else works better than medicine - in fact the evidence says prayer doesn’t work as well as treatment. (No surprise there since prayer doesn’t involve treating the actual illness.) The fact that some people get better after being prayed for doesn’t mean prayer caused the healing, and you have to be careful about drawing conclusions based on individual cases. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Because you are in the minority. That has no bearing on the strength of my argument, or yours. That’s a copout. > [@](#): > > If you are going to convice the majority that we are all suffering from mental delusions including highly intelligent Christian doctors, the onus is on you to freaking support your assertion for once. I didn’t say anybody was delusional. On the other hand I did post a cite from a study demonstrating that prayer does not help sick people get better. I notice you didn’t respond to that. Do you have a rebuttal? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/127 "2012-04-30T14:20:42Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Typical atheist copout. How come Christians have to do all the work? It’s ironic that you’re calling basic logic a “copout” and claiming that inventing things that are unfalsifiable and unprovable is “doing all the work”. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Translation - umm no we can’t explain it Persecution complex aside and ignoring the customary vapid snark, of course we’re not saying we “can’t explain it”. We’re saying, yet again, that the null hypothesis holds sway and unless and until it is refuted, it stands. I also pointed out, and you seem not to understand, that the badwaggon fallacy is an error in logic, not success. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Most people follow Islam as their cultural heritage, or a belief in the teachings of the Koran. I really don’t hear much if anything of supernatural or divine healings within that faith. Typical goalpost shifting. Now all the mystical revelations and miracles attributed to Islam don’t count because you don’t hear much (are you listening?) about “divine healings”? Of course, the answer really is just that you’re not listening and you’re privileging your own religion above others, for obvious reasons. So, when will you begin investigating Islam for conversion? Lots of stories about it… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/128 "2012-04-30T14:23:50Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > A testimony claim of healing supported by a doctor is EVIDENCE. I even posted a story with X-ray images showing the healing, but no that’s not good enough. You posted an article from something called “Assist Ministries”, which is about as plausible as me posting an anti-religion article from a website called [Godmustbekilled.com](http://Godmustbekilled.com). > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Nothing will satisfy you because you simply can’t accept the possibility of divine healing. Because its never actually happened; whenever there’s a serious investigation of such claims, they turn out to be fraud. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > This is the kind of crap that I find infuriating about atheists. You haven’t even been to the conference and already laugh it off. It proves just how intellectually dishonest atheists really are once you get past the smoke and mirrors. Nonsense. Religion has thousands of years of history of being relentlessly wrong. It’s a _hallmark_ of religion that it’s wrong. Why should I take seriously the idea that this out of all the millions of other false claims made by believers will actually be true? > [@GEEPERS](#): > > From my personal experiences, I find most medical treatments not that effective. They certainly didn’t fix my back pain. I was healed spiritually when I was able to let go of the fear of chronic pain. In other words, you fooled yourself into thinking you are healed because it fits your religious fantasies. That doesn’t mean that you are healed; it means that your religion it hurting you even more by driving you away from real medical treatment. Faith healing is an especially evil form of fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/129 "2012-04-30T14:25:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, you fooled yourself into thinking you are healed because it fits your religious fantasies. It doesn’t have to be that, of course. Chronic pain comes and goes spontaneously for lots of people, and that’s one of the things that makes it hard to treat - we don’t know when the pain just goes away and when it is responding to an effective therapy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/130 "2012-04-30T14:28:02Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Most people follow Islam as their cultural heritage, or a belief in the teachings of the Koran. I really don’t hear much if anything of supernatural or divine healings within that faith. What you hear about Islam is not correct (out of curiosity- where do you get your information about Islam?). Many Muslims believe in the efficacy of prayer for healing- as well as supernatural healing: [here](http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_51_100/spiritual_dimensions_in_healing.htm), [here](http://www.meem.freeuk.com/Healing.html), [here](http://theonlinemuslim.blogspot.com/2008/01/prayers-and-healing.html), and [here](http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/38292-faith-healing-islam-vs-christianity.html). Why should I take your information as more valid than Muslims? There are certainly many millions of Muslims that would tell me that their prayer is the most effective. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/131 "2012-04-30T14:32:48Z")
GEEPERS- many members of pretty much every religion believe that their religion is the true path, and have the same sorts of stories of the efficacy of prayer, divine revelation, even miracles that you claim for Christianity. They have the same sort of personal experiences- including of demonic influences and divine grace that you have had. How am I supposed to sort them out? Why should I not just treat all these claims the same? ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/132 "2012-04-30T14:35:15Z")
I, for one, am curious why, if medical science is a sham and faith healing is obviously effective, why these highly intelligent Christian doctors bother going to medical school in the first place. Why don’t they simply devote their time to creating the largest possible prayer group? Also, the double standard from the evolution thread has again reared its head. The fact that we don’t have 100% perfect knowledge of medical science means that the field is totally worthless, but claims of healing resulting from magic cannot be questioned. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/133 "2012-04-30T14:36:05Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > divine healing Is [this man](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y) a fraud? What standard of evidence would you require if you saw a similar audience, without the audio recording? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/134 "2012-04-30T14:38:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What you hear about Islam is not correct (out of curiosity- where do you get your information about Islam?). I get the sense **GEEPERS** doesn’t have a lot of familiarity with any viewpoint on religious issues other than his particular version of Christianity, whatever denomination that is. To the extent he’s familiar with other faiths or atheism or anything else, it’s only from the standpoint of his own religion: other religions are just cultural, nobody makes the claims Christianity makes about healing and salvation and miracles, atheists are hopeless and want to attack religious people, the list goes on. I’m not saying this to be insulting, **GEEPERS** - your views reflect a lack of unbiased information on the subject. I can understand maybe you don’t feel the need to look very far since you know what the truth is, but you really don’t have any kind of understanding of what other people think about these issues. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How am I supposed to sort them out? Why should I not just treat all these claims the same? I think **GEEPERS** has been asked that before and I don’t remember a solid answer. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/135 "2012-04-30T14:41:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You posted an article from something called “Assist Ministries”, which is about as plausible as me posting an anti-religion article from a website called [Godmustbekilled.com](http://Godmustbekilled.com). Typical atheist bias copout So it’s not worth registering and going to a conference with well regarded doctors from around the world presenting scientific evidence for healing simply because the organization is Christian. Ok, put your head back in the sand then. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because its never actually happened; whenever there’s a serious investigation of such claims, they turn out to be fraud. We are suppose to take your word that it never happened? What an insult to the people who experienced a miracle. Am I suppose to believe that the Titanic never sank simply because you say it never happened? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. Religion has thousands of years of history of being relentlessly wrong. It’s a _hallmark_ of religion that it’s wrong. Why should I take seriously the idea that this out of all the millions of other false claims made by believers will actually be true? Wrong about what? Isn’t that equivalent to Argumentum ad populum? If you are right that religion has been wrong for thousand of years, that does not automatically invalidate any present of future religious experiences. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, you fooled yourself into thinking you are healed because it fits your religious fantasies. That doesn’t mean that you are healed; it means that your religion it hurting you even more by driving you away from real medical treatment. Faith healing is an especially evil form of fraud. I see, so my thoughts in my mind created a physical change in my body. How does that happen again exactly? As for real medical treatment, it’s hardly effective for back pain. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/136 "2012-04-30T14:45:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > GEEPERS- many members of pretty much every religion believe that their religion is the true path, and have the same sorts of stories of the efficacy of prayer, divine revelation, even miracles that you claim for Christianity. They have the same sort of personal experiences- including of demonic influences and divine grace that you have had. > > How am I supposed to sort them out? Why should I not just treat all these claims the same? You would start by accepting that there is a real supernatural realm out there. There are countless stories of supernatural experiences. Everyone that has a seen a ghost, for example. I’ve had friends who witnessed things flying in a room and a radio turning on and off by itself. Science can’t explain such things. That alone debunks atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/137 "2012-04-30T14:47:31Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > That alone debunks atheism. No-without corroboration it only debunks stories told by you and your friends. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/138 "2012-04-30T14:51:50Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > A testimony claim of healing supported by a doctor is EVIDENCE. No, it is NOT. Not any more than testimony from a spectator at a magic show who saw an egg extracted from your ear proves that your ear makes eggs. Testimony is evidence of NOTHING, which is why science discounts it greatly. It’s too subject to error. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/139 "2012-04-30T14:53:27Z")
I am agnostic, not atheistic, but people call me an atheist nevertheless. For me, it started when I was around 13 and trying to get answers to some questions that I had about my Christian beliefs. In trying to find those answers, I discovered that all religions are nothing more than massive con games. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/140 "2012-04-30T14:55:18Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > I, for one, am curious why, if medical science is a sham and faith healing is obviously effective, why these highly intelligent Christian doctors bother going to medical school in the first place. Why don’t they simply devote their time to creating the largest possible prayer group? > > Also, the double standard from the evolution thread has again reared its head. The fact that we don’t have 100% perfect knowledge of medical science means that the field is totally worthless, but claims of healing resulting from magic cannot be questioned. I never claimed it is a sham or totally worthless. I’m claming that complete faith in the knowledge of man really doesn’t offer much hope. Most treatments carry a degree of risk so it’s really just a gamble. They can’t even guarantee a patient that he will be 100% back to normal after a broken bone. You could have limited mobility or develop chronic pain in the joints. And if the treatment fails, the patient has absolutely no hope from an atheist doctor. I rather be treated by a Christian doctor who prays for wisdom and a steady hand in surgery! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150.md?page=8)