# What atheists think, and why (in re: GEEPERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150 "2012-04-27T16:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/141 "2012-04-30T14:55:25Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Typical atheist bias copout So it’s not worth registering and going to a conference with well regarded doctors from around the world presenting scientific evidence for healing simply because the organization is Christian. Ok, put your head back in the sand then. “Well respected doctors”? Yeah, right. Try “quacks” instead. No, I’m not willing to spend significant amounts of time and money and travel to another continent just to visit some conference of religious frauds. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > We are suppose to take your word that it never happened? What an insult to the people who experienced a miracle. Am I suppose to believe that the Titanic never sank simply because you say it never happened? No, because there’s plenty of actual evidence that the Titanic sank. None at all for miracles. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Wrong about what? _Everything_, pretty much. Religious claims are overwhelmingly false; much worse than random guessing, even. As I said, it’s a hallmark of religion that it’s wrong. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Isn’t that equivalent to Argumentum ad populum? No, it’s the equivalent of “let’s take a look at the record”. Religion has a history of being wrong about everything it claims. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > I see, so my thoughts in my mind created a physical change in my body. No; pain is a subjective experience. It can go away on its own, too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/142 "2012-04-30T14:57:37Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > You would start by accepting that there is a real supernatural realm out there. No, from a logical standpoint that’s a complete nonstarter. If we can’t even start evaluating religions without accepting _other_ stuff that has never been proven, then you are simply unable to make your case. This is not stuff that can be taken for granted in an argument. > [@](#): > > There are countless stories of supernatural experiences. Again, that’s not a convincing argument. People sometimes see things they can’t explain. Does that prove the events are supernatural and inexplicable, beyond the realm of science? No. It means the people who witnessed them didn’t know what was happening at the time. > [@](#): > > I’ve had friends who witnessed things flying in a room and a radio turning on and off by itself. Science can’t explain such things. I assure you science can explain things falling off shelves and short circuits in radios. > [@](#): > > That alone debunks atheism. Leaving aside the fact that it does _not_ debunk atheism, he asked you about evaluating claims from different religions. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > I’m claming that complete faith in the knowledge of man really doesn’t offer much hope. Atheists don’t claim total faith in the knowledge of man. > [@](#): > > Most treatments carry a degree of risk so it’s really just a gamble. I don’t think you understand gambling very well either. It is true that every medical procedure involves some risk. That doesn’t mean it’s “just a gamble.” Probabilities and outcomes can be prepared for and handled in a rational way. > [@](#): > > They can’t even guarantee a patient that he will be 100% back to normal after a broken bone. Who can guarantee anything? > [@](#): > > You could have limited mobility or develop chronic pain in the joints. Which is bad, but better than walking around on a broken leg. > [@](#): > > And if the treatment fails, the patient has absolutely no hope from an atheist doctor. People go to doctors for medical treatment, not religious advice. Do you think atheist doctors are in the habit of telling people “You’re fucked - sorry” while Christian doctors tell patients “Just pray and your broken leg will heal?” That doesn’t sound like medicine to me. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/143 "2012-04-30T14:58:10Z")
Ah **GEEPERS**. It isn’t atheists you can’t stand, it’s empiricists. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/144 "2012-04-30T14:59:48Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > No, it is NOT. Not any more than testimony from a spectator at a magic show who saw an egg extracted from your ear proves that your ear makes eggs. > > Testimony is evidence of NOTHING, which is why science discounts it greatly. It’s too subject to error. Wow, I hope I never have you for a lawyer. lol Testimony is certainly accepted as evidence in a court of law. Historians accept many of the events of the Titanic sinking as fact going solely by the testimony of survivors. Why should I believe what the survivors reported? BTW, your magician analogy fails because it is a well known art form using sleight of hand or props to create visual illusions. Yet I’m to believe a well respected doctor would put his career on the line to make up lies about a divine healing. Yea ok. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/145 "2012-04-30T15:03:21Z")
So… which other religion(s) are you now looking into converting to? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/146 "2012-04-30T15:03:21Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Ah **GEEPERS**. It isn’t atheists you can’t stand, it’s empiricists. Yeah. Almost any use of “atheist” in this thread (and every one of **GEEPERS** ’ posts) could be changed to “person who doesn’t take the Bible literally.” I don’t see any distinction drawn between those two very different groups of people. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/147 "2012-04-30T15:12:50Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I never claimed it is a sham or totally worthless. I’m claming that complete faith in the knowledge of man really doesn’t offer much hope. Most treatments carry a degree of risk so it’s really just a gamble. They can’t even guarantee a patient that he will be 100% back to normal after a broken bone. You could have limited mobility or develop chronic pain in the joints. And if the treatment fails, the patient has absolutely no hope from an atheist doctor. So, because modern medicine isn’t absolutely perfect in everything it does, god is better? First, prayer doesn’t work, and yes, I have a cite: [Study shows that praying for heart patients is not more effective than not praying for them](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all). The study also says that if you tell a heart patient that they are being prayed for, that thing actually get worse. Why don’t you go ask some of [these people](http://whatstheharm.net/christianscience.html) how well prayer worked for them. Oh wait, you can’t, they all died because they never received any actual treatment. > [@](#): > > I rather be treated by a Christian doctor who prays for wisdom and a steady hand in surgery! [Science vs Religion](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2011/12/science-vs-religion-2/) Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/148 "2012-04-30T15:14:31Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > BTW, your magician analogy fails because it is a well known art form using sleight of hand or props to create visual illusions. Yet I’m to believe a well respected doctor would put his career on the line to make up lies about a divine healing. Yea ok. That’s what faith healers do all the time. And “well respected doctors” don’t claim to be using “divine healing” any more than they claim to be using orgone or witchcraft or the healing crystals of Atlantis. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/149 "2012-04-30T15:14:39Z")
Unfortunately, any measurable defintion of success in this world shows no difference in outcomes between “hard work, dedication, talent” and “hard work, dedication, talent and trust in God.” So there should be no reason to be surprised that many people feel no reason to add an extraneous step. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/150 "2012-04-30T15:52:36Z")
Well, GEEPERS is right about one thing. The testimony of people who claim to have been healed by faith _is_ evidence. It isn’t _good_, persuasive, or noteworthy evidence, but it is evidence in some sense. > [@](#): > > Historians accept many of the events of the Titanic sinking as fact going solely by the testimony of survivors. Why should I believe what the survivors reported? Firstly, because we have tons of empirical evidence that a ship called “Titanic” existed, crashed into an iceberg, and sank on its voyage to New York. For instance, we can and have looked at the actual wreckage of the ship. Second, because so long as we can verify that a given person was in fact a Titanic survivor (say, by finding some record of that person’s having been rescued from the site of the sinking, and that person having been on the ship to begin with), we can test that person’s account of events against other things we know about the event and verify their story. If the survivor says, “We ran around trying to find a lifeboat, found one, got in it, and floated around shivering for several hours before the Carpathia showed up,” we are more likely to accept that story than if the survivor says, “As soon as the ship crashed, I sprouted Pterodactyl wings and flew to sunny Bermuda.” The latter person’s extraordinary claims will be subject to some pretty close scrutiny. In other words, the word of survivors is taken only insofar as it matches what we already know about the event; we don’t just accept anyone’s account of anything, no matter what it is. “My cancer went into remission because the same magical being which created the universe communicates with me psychically and cares deeply about my health, although not deeply enough to spare me the cancer in the first place,” is just as extraordinary a claim as my mutant pterodactyl hypothetical. Moreso, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/151 "2012-04-30T15:55:31Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > You would start by accepting that there is a real supernatural realm out there. There are countless stories of supernatural experiences. Everyone that has a seen a ghost, for example. I’ve had friends who witnessed things flying in a room and a radio turning on and off by itself. Science can’t explain such things. > > That alone debunks atheism. This alone tells me you are deeply confused. Atheism is the lack of belief in God, not the supernatural in general. Atheists can be consistent and believe in ghosts and a supernatural realm. Many don’t, but I do know of a few that do. On a side note, people claim to experience alien abductions - do you believe they happen? People have claimed (up until the 1930’s from my research) that vampires attack them. Do vampires exist? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/152 "2012-04-30T15:55:58Z")
Aggghhh!! **Geepers** , I am so ashamed of being an atheist, I am going to commit suicide immediately upon hitting the “reply” button, but before I do I just want you to know that you are right about everything, not just the issues raised in this thread, and I am wrong about everything, and always have been, always will be. Is this a satisfactory response from a lifelong (well, except for the final few minutes left to me) atheist? Or must I have gone further? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/153 "2012-04-30T15:58:48Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Aggghhh!! **Geepers** , I am so ashamed of being an atheist, I am going to commit suicide immediately upon hitting the “reply” button, but before I do I just want you to know that you are right about everything, not just the issues raised in this thread, and I am wrong about everything, and always have been, always will be. > > Is this a satisfactory response from a lifelong (well, except for the final few minutes left to me) atheist? Or must I have gone further? Not really because it sounds sauteed in sarcasm to me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/154 "2012-04-30T16:00:09Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Not really because it sounds sauteed in sarcasm to me. You’ve caught him. Seriously, though - taking it for granted that atheists aren’t going to agree with you about god any more than you are going to agree with them that there’s none - what do you expect atheists to agree with you about? Can you offer some sample statements? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/155 "2012-04-30T16:01:32Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > This alone tells me you are deeply confused. Atheism is the lack of belief in God, not the supernatural in general. Atheists can be consistent and believe in ghosts and a supernatural realm. > > Many don’t, but I do know of a few that do. > > On a side note, people claim to experience alien abductions - do you believe they happen? People have claimed (up until the 1930’s from my research) that vampires attack them. Do vampires exist? But atheists boldly proclaim that there is no life after death. I would think a belief in the supernatural would contradict that claim. As for UFOS and vampires, I wouldn’t immediately discount them unlike atheist’s MO. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/156 "2012-04-30T16:02:27Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Wow, I hope I never have you for a lawyer. lol Testimony is certainly accepted as evidence in a court of law. You do realize that eye witness testimony is often rejected or overturned on other evidence (DNA for instance). It’s often the worse sort there is. It’s not completely worthless, mind you, but there are cognitive processes that make it less than perfect (confabulation for one). ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/157 "2012-04-30T16:07:12Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > But atheists boldly proclaim that there is no life after death. I would think a belief in the supernatural would contradict that claim. Nope, not all atheists do ‘boldly proclaim’ this. Again, you are confused as to what the term ‘atheist’ actually means. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > As for UFOS and vampires, I wouldn’t immediately discount them unlike atheist’s MO. You do realize that these things were not initially discounted - they were investigated and the evidence does support them. As to these ‘mythical atheists’ that you are referring to and what their methods are, I cannot say. It seems reasonable that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. After all, if I claimed to be big foot, the burden would not be on you to disprove my claim, or do you disagree? In any event, so you do believe in alien abduction, vampires, fairies, time travelers, and psychotic mad men dressed up in Bunny suits? All of these things have people testifying that they exist. Your stance seems to be that this alone is enough to give them credence, so the inference is that you believe these things, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/158 "2012-04-30T16:09:22Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > After all, if I claimed to be big foot, the burden would not be on you to disprove my claim, or do you disagree? Normally, yes. On the other hand, if you consider the fact that sometimes stuff falls off shelves, radios have short circuits, and people claim to see ghosts sometimes, your claim about being Bigfoot becomes much more credible. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/159 "2012-04-30T16:13:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Normally, yes. On the other hand, if you consider the fact that sometimes stuff falls off shelves, radios have short circuits, and people claim to see ghosts sometimes, your claim about being Bigfoot becomes much more credible. This seems like a sly way of calling attention to my girth. It’s not my fault that I’m 9 feet tall and 500 pounds. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/160 "2012-04-30T16:14:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Normally, yes. On the other hand, if you consider the fact that sometimes stuff falls off shelves, radios have short circuits, and people claim to see ghosts sometimes, your claim about being Bigfoot becomes much more credible. I said objects were flying across the room. Does objects fall off the shelf and then shoot midair in a horizontal motion? Gee I thought gravity made objects fall down vertically. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150.md?page=9)