# What atheists think, and why (in re: GEEPERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150 "2012-04-27T16:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/161 "2012-04-30T16:16:17Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I said objects were flying across the room. Does objects fall off the shelf and then shoot midair in a horizontal motion? Gee I thought gravity made objects fall down vertically. In real life, yes. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/162 "2012-04-30T16:19:21Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I’ve had friends who witnessed things flying in a room and a radio turning on and off by itself. Science can’t explain such things. Obviously, it’s a tulpa. Right? You honestly do believe that sort of thing is evidence, and not just when you cherrypick it for Fundamentalist apologetics. As such, after you look into converting to Islam, you’ll also look into converting to Tibetan Buddhism. Right? You’ve ignored this ‘little’ hole in your logic repeatedly. Do you actually hold your standards of ‘evidence’, or just rationalize your way to your pre-judged conclusion? > [@GEEPERS](#): > > But atheists boldly proclaim that there is no life after death. I would think a belief in the supernatural would contradict that claim. 1. Yet again, that’s the null hypothesis. Absent any actual evidence, and there aint any, we must conclude that what appears to be the case actually is the case. 2. No, it wouldn’t. Even if you were to prove that such a realm as “the supernatural” existed, that wouldn’t allow you to describe its nature or population. “Magic things happen, so we have souls and we live forever after death.” is hardly a logical progression. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Does objects fall off the shelf and then shoot midair in a horizontal motion? Wow, what solid proof of not just the supernatural, but the divine! “Hey, God ol’ buddy, do you want to put up a holographic copy of the Bible which will appear in the sky, floating in the air in front of people’s eyes, broadcast into their thoughts and dreams, on every TV channel and in every newspaper, and…” “Nah. I’ll know how I’ll prove myself and give people my message: books flying off shelves, and pictures of Mary on toast!” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/163 "2012-04-30T16:23:22Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I said objects were flying across the room. Does objects fall off the shelf and then shoot midair in a horizontal motion? Now we get to the part you don’t like: I don’t think your friends saw stuff fly across the room for no reason. I don’t know what they did see, and I can accept that maybe they think that’s what they saw. But whether it’s stuff tipping off the shelf, an earthquake, somebody nudging the shelf or hitting the wall accidentally, I don’t think stuff just flew around the room in violation of the laws of physics. As a reminder, “stuff flew off the shelf!” = god. You were asked about the competing miraculous claims made by different religions, and yes, multiple religions make supernatural claims. In fact I think all of them have miracles. Jesus healed the sick, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven, Muhammad ascended directly to heaven without dying, Buddha was born from his mother’s side, Moses parted a sea, the list goes on. You responded to that question by saying that we have to start by accepting there is inexplicable supernatural stuff out there that science is unable to explain. That simply does not work from a logical standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/164 "2012-04-30T16:25:35Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I said objects were flying across the room. Does objects fall off the shelf and then shoot midair in a horizontal motion? Gee I thought gravity made objects fall down vertically. Your friends being honestly mistaken, stupidly confused or simply lying is much more likely than dead people moving objects. Do dead people hate camera phones? Why don’t they levitate objects near someone with one? All you need to prove your stance about levitation is to film one object levitating (with reasonable clarity) ever. Yet, you want the skeptic to prove that every single claim made by every nutjob, liar or honestly confused person isn’t true, otherwise you’re going to assume it is. That’s not how reasoning works. That’s not how thinking works. We aren’t being mean to you, we’re trying to educate you that you aren’t using the correct tools to reason. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/165 "2012-04-30T16:27:46Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > So, because modern medicine isn’t absolutely perfect in everything it does, god is better? First, prayer doesn’t work, and yes, I have a cite: [Study shows that praying for heart patients is not more effective than not praying for them](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all). The study also says that if you tell a heart patient that they are being prayed for, that thing actually get worse. Why don’t you go ask some of [these people](http://whatstheharm.net/christianscience.html) how well prayer worked for them. Oh wait, you can’t, they all died because they never received any actual treatment. > [Science vs Religion](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2011/12/science-vs-religion-2/) Good luck with that. Even the article itself admits that the study was problematic: "Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family members and friends " "But experts said the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying. " And I can find plenty of other studies that showed prayer had a positive affect, but I don’t think you can put much weight into these studies. You are trying to measure something intangible. It would be like trying to measure how much you love your parents vs your siblings. Also, the study says nothing if the patients were Christians. Why would God help someone who has rejected Christ and living in sin? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/166 "2012-04-30T16:30:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Your friends being honestly mistaken, stupidly confused or simply lying is much more likely than dead people moving objects. > > Do dead people hate camera phones? Why don’t they levitate objects near someone with one? > > All you need to prove your stance about levitation is to film one object levitating (with reasonable clarity) ever. Yet, you want the skeptic to prove that every single claim made by every nutjob, liar or honestly confused person isn’t true, otherwise you’re going to assume it is. > > That’s not how reasoning works. That’s not how thinking works. We aren’t being mean to you, we’re trying to educate you that you aren’t using the correct tools to reason. Youtube has plenty of ghost videos and objects moving, but skeptics easily dismiss it as hoaxes and camera trickery. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/167 "2012-04-30T16:31:47Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Youtube has plenty of ghost videos and objects moving, but skeptics easily dismiss it as hoaxes and camera trickery. Are you denying that there could be hoax videos, camera trickery, or simply malfunctions of the camera (no deception on the part of the person filming)? If you don’t deny those things, please tell us how one can tell the difference between them and legit phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/168 "2012-04-30T16:31:52Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > And I can find plenty of other studies that showed prayer had a positive affect, but I don’t think you can put much weight into these studies. Reputable studies haven’t shown it to be useful. Cite some if you think there are some around. > [@](#): > > Also, the study says nothing if the patients were Christians. Why would God help someone who has rejected Christ and living in sin? Because He might not be evil? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/169 "2012-04-30T16:32:05Z")
I think this thread has gone far afield. **GEEPERS** , Of the posts where posters told what they think and why they think that way, how many do you think were telling the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/170 "2012-04-30T16:33:44Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Youtube has plenty of ghost videos and objects moving, but skeptics easily dismiss it as hoaxes and camera trickery. Show me the specific one that looks the best to you. As it happens, I have a bit of experience editing video, show me what you think proves ghosts move objects and I’ll take an honest look at it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/171 "2012-04-30T16:35:35Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Youtube has plenty of ghost videos and objects moving, but skeptics easily dismiss it as hoaxes and camera trickery. And can you give up two or three examples where the skepticism seems especially misplaced, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/172 "2012-04-30T16:36:30Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > You are trying to measure something intangible. If you can’t measure something intangible, how can you assert that prayer heals? > [@](#): > > Also, the study says nothing if the patients were Christians. Why would it? > [@](#): > > Why would God help someone who has rejected Christ and living in sin? Because God is supposed to be loving and so forth. At least according to Christians. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/173 "2012-04-30T16:44:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Obviously, it’s a tulpa. Right? You honestly do believe that sort of thing is evidence, and not just when you cherrypick it for Fundamentalist apologetics. As such, after you look into converting to Islam, you’ll also look into converting to Tibetan Buddhism. Right? > You’ve ignored this ‘little’ hole in your logic repeatedly. Do you actually hold your standards of ‘evidence’, or just rationalize your way to your pre-judged conclusion? Why would I bother looking at other man-made religions when my personal evidences show me beyond a shadow of a doubt that faith in Jesus Christ is the way to go? I realize that my experiences won’t convince, and never claimed that they would. I couldnt convert to Islam just based on their lack of respect for women, and crazy teachings like Adam being 90 ft tall. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Wow, what solid proof of not just the supernatural, but the divine! > “Hey, God ol’ buddy, do you want to put up a holographic copy of the Bible which will appear in the sky, floating in the air in front of people’s eyes, broadcast into their thoughts and dreams, on every TV channel and in every newspaper, and…” > “Nah. I’ll know how I’ll prove myself and give people my message: books flying off shelves, and pictures of Mary on toast!” You would still claim it was a hoax! Jesus raised people from the dead in his day. That didn’t convince the skeptics back then. If I was God, I wouldn’t bother trying to appease your demands either. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/174 "2012-04-30T16:48:41Z")
Are you seriously claiming to know and understand what God would do? It was my understanding that was something of a no-no. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/175 "2012-04-30T16:51:17Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Why would I bother looking at other man-made religions when my personal evidences show me beyond a shadow of a doubt that faith in Jesus Christ is the way to go? You were asked how _other people_ should evaluate religious evidence. How should they do it? > [@](#): > > I couldnt convert to Islam just based on their lack of respect for women, and crazy teachings like Adam being 90 ft tall. Doesn’t the Bible say Adam lived to be 900? That’s just as crazy. > [@](#): > > Jesus raised people from the dead in his day. That didn’t convince the skeptics back then. I don’t suppose that should tell us something. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/176 "2012-04-30T16:57:43Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Why would I bother looking at other man-made religions when my personal evidences show me beyond a shadow of a doubt that faith in Jesus Christ is the way to go? So you don’t believe that if means anything if someone shares their personal experiences that they share in an attempt to convert you. Odd. So why is that only for other religions, and how do you claim there’s a single jot more proof of Christian theology than Voudon if the only qualification is “it feels right to me.” Why should we accept your claims over those of the Cargo Cult? > [@GEEPERS](#): > > I couldnt convert to Islam just based on their lack of respect for women, and crazy teachings like Adam being 90 ft tall. Whereas a lack of respect for gays and lesbians and crazy teachings about a Loving God who will torture His children in a special realm-of-torment which He allows to exist, and you will be tortured for all eternity out of His Love if you do not worship the only Son who He sired upon a non-consenting woman and who He sacrificed to Himself to change a rule that He made and could’ve changed at any time He felt like it? That makes perfect sense. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > That didn’t convince the skeptics back then. If I was God, I wouldn’t bother trying to appease your demands either. Largely because, ya know, that didn’t actually happen back then. As for God not “bothering to appease” someone’s demands for proof… what kind of a weak, impotent, whiny dumbass God do you worship who can’t change someone’s mind? You actually believe in a deity which is not omnipotent? Yet again, it would be trivially easy for any omniscient, omnipotent God to provide limitless proof to anybody at all. The fact that no such proof is forthcoming should suggest more than a few things to you. > [@GEEPERS](#): > > "But experts said the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying. " “Experts were also apologetic, noting that the study likewise did not calculate for the variable influence of the participants’ sun signs, or general non-religious good vibes, or the impact of demons from the 7th circle of Hell. Investigators note that they controlled for the impact of demons from both the 5th and 6th circles of hell, but their Hellometer suffered technical glitches which ruled out a solid trial of 7th circle demons’ influence.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/177 "2012-04-30T17:00:06Z")
There is, of course, no way for a study to control for friends and family members praying for a person with or without the knowledge of that person. We’re talking about people’s thoughts here. But the 2006 study did address an older, much-discussed study that said patients who were prayed for did better. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/178 "2012-04-30T17:01:44Z")
Just thought I’d point out that at least some in this thread (I haven’t read all the responses) are conflating atheism, a lack of belief in god/gods/God (or the active belief that such things do not exist) with being areligious. For me, that ignores what I think to be the most likely scenario: that every religion known to man has got it wrong, both that there does exist a God. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/179 "2012-04-30T17:09:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Just thought I’d point out that at least some in this thread (I haven’t read all the responses) are conflating atheism, a lack of belief in god/gods/God (or the active belief that such things do not exist) with being areligious. For me, that ignores what I think to be the most likely scenario: that every religion known to man has got it wrong, both that there does exist a God. Well, if you have a particular insight, maybe you could start your own cult. And if your cult becomes a success… a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150/180 "2012-04-30T17:10:53Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Why would I bother looking at other man-made religions when my personal evidences show me beyond a shadow of a doubt that faith in Jesus Christ is the way to go? I realize that my experiences won’t convince, and never claimed that they would. I couldnt convert to Islam just based on their lack of respect for women, and crazy teachings like Adam being 90 ft tall. Beyond a shadow of a doubt? That’s a strong level of certainty. How do you know that your experiences were not caused by Ahiriman, who wants you to believe in Christianity - because it’s false and keeps you away from Ahura Mazda (the truth)? > [@GEEPERS](#): > > You would still claim it was a hoax! Jesus raised people from the dead in his day. That didn’t convince the skeptics back then. If I was God, I wouldn’t bother trying to appease your demands either. Vespasian was said to do miracles as well, should we revere him as the Messiah (as Josephus believed)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-atheists-think-and-why-in-re-geepers/620150.md?page=10)