# What book or movie has the 'badguys' winning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755 "2004-05-24T05:52:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/1 "2004-05-24T05:52:12Z")
I do not believe that I have yet read a book or seen a movie in which the bad guys (not the ‘antiheros’ or something along those lines) win, hands down. Sure, there are plenty of movies in which the bad guy gets away or something, but I am talking about the bad guy not only gets away, but the ‘good guy’ is cut into pieces and shoved in garbage bags. I am talking about unambiguous evil victory. _The Empire Strikes Back_ doesn’t count, since we knew there would be another movie, but it’s close to what I am talking about. I have read _Red Army_, but that is also not what I am talking about, since the Red Army is setup as the ‘goodguy’ to the NATO ‘badguy’. So, let’s hear it. In what books or movies do the badguys win? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/2 "2004-05-24T05:59:33Z")
_1984_. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/3 "2004-05-24T06:00:49Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > _1984_. Oh ya… ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/4 "2004-05-24T06:06:48Z")
\*1984 \* by George Orwell. The totalitarian state, with its figurehead Big Brother, succeeds in crushing Winston Smith’s attempts at intellectual rebellion. By the end of the novel he has been “re-educated” and loves Big Brother. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/5 "2004-05-24T06:09:11Z")
… has anyone said _1984_ yet? ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/6 "2004-05-24T06:18:36Z")
Well **Identity** ends with all the ‘good’ personalities dead. The psychiatrist dead and the killer out free. I don’t think the killer counts as an anti-hero. **Shadow of the Vampire** the director gets his masterpiece and frankly I thought he was worse then the actual vampire. After all the vampire was just doing his job by eating people where the director was selling people out and seemingly insane by the end. In **Unbreakable** the bad guy is sent to an asylum which in his mind is exactly the comic book resolution he no doubt craved. **American Beauty** probably ends up with the daughter and boyfriend going to jail and the Marine guy getting away with it. Though none of these are exactly what you’re looking for some are pretty close. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/7 "2004-05-24T06:21:51Z")
[The Wicker Man](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/) (1973). ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/8 "2004-05-24T06:27:25Z")
Any book where the French win a war. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/9 "2004-05-24T06:48:02Z")
There’s a million alternate history books that have the Nazis winning the war. Virtually any horror short story has the bad guys winning. Really it’s more a twist when something good happens. **Watchmen** is sort of gray. The question is a big evil acceptable to prevent an even bigger evil. any Darwin Award story that ends in survival. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/10 "2004-05-24T06:57:10Z")
There are two kinds of ‘antihero’. The traditional literary definition refers to a protaganist who achieves his goals through less than heroic means, or who lacks heroic qualities. This term is often used to describe a good guy who uses unheroic methods to achieve positive goals, or a bad guy who happens to be the protagonist. I prefer to think of an antihero as only the former, while the latter is a villain as protagonist. On to the OP: _The Parallax View_: Warren Beatty is a reporter investigating the murder of a political figure. The murder has been blamed on one man, but some suspect a conspiracy involving wealthy men with government connections. Beatty manages to get inside the consipiracy, and thinks he’s closing in on exposing it. He discovers who the next target is, and tries to save him. He fails, is murdered in the process, and is framed for the murder himself. The movie ends with a commission report saying that Beatty acted alone. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/11 "2004-05-24T07:10:26Z")
Oh I just remembered one that’s just perfect for this. **Arlington Road** the good guy is blown to bits and the terrorists frame him for it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/12 "2004-05-24T07:14:38Z")
I suppose _Hamlet_ qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![Shadez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Shadez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shadez)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/13 "2004-05-24T07:20:42Z")
_Fallen_ by Denzel Washington. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/14 "2004-05-24T08:08:19Z")
_Dr. Strangelove._ Actually, I guess _nobody_ wins in that one. What about _Platoon_? Oh, and the remake of _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_? ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/15 "2004-05-24T10:06:03Z")
What about American Psycho (book, at least)? Although you can hardly say that Christian comes out unscathed by the end of the book, he certainly gets away with the crimes he’s committed to date. The strong suggestion is that he will keep going and doing more and more horrendous things too. ---
**Author:** ![Dugrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@Dugrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dugrik)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/16 "2004-05-24T10:19:27Z")
In _The Tailor of Panama_, Pierce Brosnan plays a British MI6 agent who’s a real bastard. Brosnan provokes the United States into attacking Panama and funding a group of rebels he discovered. There are no rebels and Brosnan embezzles the money and is promoted for his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/17 "2004-05-24T11:11:42Z")
Brave New World ends with “the Savage” having committed suicide and the other protaganists having been exiled. Robert Ludlum’s The Holcroft Covenant, which is about an international neo-nazi group trying to manipulate our hero to get their hands on a fortune they’re going to use to plan world domination ends with the neo-nazis getting the money and coming to power in the US and much of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Starguard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Starguard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starguard)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/18 "2004-05-24T11:23:08Z")
Payback starring Mel Gibson ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/19 "2004-05-24T11:25:59Z")
**Rocky** (The winner wasn’t exactly bad, but the good guy definitely lost) **The Great Race** **Crimes and Misdemeanors** (Alan Alda gets the girl, Martin Landau gets away with murder) **Bob Roberts** was not a complex antihero. **Never Cry Wolf** **The Alamo** **Spartacus** ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/20 "2004-05-24T11:45:31Z")
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