# What book or movie has the 'badguys' winning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755 "2004-05-24T05:52:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/41 "2004-05-24T15:48:30Z")
Ha, even better. Sam Mendes filmed scenes of Wesley being convicted for Lester’s murder. These were deleted from the Oscar-winning version shown in cinemas. From [here](http://www.reel.com/reel.asp?node=movienews/confidential/archive/20000405): \*\* > [@](#): > > Then the story cuts to a scene with Wes Bentley’s Ricky Fitz character sitting in jail and singing “Fixin’ a Hole” as he awaits trial for the murder of Lester Burnham, which his dad, Colonel Fitts (Chris Cooper), has fingered him for and provided relevant damning information to the police. > > \ > > Hall is especially proud of a climactic scene in the courtroom, just as the verdict is being announced, with the camera tracking left to right from the prosecution table, catching sight of Thora Birch’s character, and then Bening and Gallagher sitting together, and then arriving at a close-up of Bentley’s stunned face just as the foreman reads, “Guilty.” > > But the film ends with the truth coming out when Ricky’s mother (Allison Janney) finds the colonel’s blood-soaked T-shirt, puts it into an envelope, and mails it to the police. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![YoudNeverGuess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a587f6/32.png) [@YoudNeverGuess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoudNeverGuess)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/42 "2004-05-24T16:01:12Z")
_The Trial_ - Kafka (as far as I remember though I think I was undergoing some sort of temporary insanity when I read that book induced by the utter horror of the situation the protagonist finds himself in…shudder…) ---
**Author:** ![lowblow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f0a364/32.png) [@lowblow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowblow)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/43 "2004-05-24T16:09:51Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > **Rocky** (The winner wasn’t exactly bad, but the good guy definitely lost) > **The Great Race** Man, that was movie great. I thought it was cool and entertaining. I fogot the professor won. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/44 "2004-05-24T16:23:30Z")
IIRC, The Jungle by Sinclair. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/45 "2004-05-24T18:56:44Z")
_Ransom_ by Jay McInerney. Protagonist gets killed in a duel with the ‘bad guy’ at the end. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/46 "2004-05-24T19:09:47Z")
**Night of the Living dead** **JFK** **Goodfellas** **The Godfather movies** Does \*\*Fight Club \*\* count? After all, nobody prevented those explosives from going off and project mayhem is still in full swing. **The Ninth Gate** **In the Mouth of Madness** Possibly **The Thing(1982)** **Uzumaki** **The Ring** **The Blair Witch Project** **Dagon** I’m not sure if **Scarface(1983)** counts. **Brazil** Almost every lovecraft story ever written. Mostly Harmless by Douglas Adams. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/47 "2004-05-24T19:24:38Z")
I was going to list Angel Heart, Brazil, and 12 Monkeys. All great films, by the way. In comics, Watchmen is a debatable one–the bad guy wins, but the good guys let him get away with it “for a greater good.” Another comic where the good guy never stood a chance is Point Blank, a noir-influenced mystery set in the Wildstorm superhero universe. The villain definitely wins in this five-issue miniseries by Ed Brubaker and Colin Wilson. (I highly recommend the TPB, by the way!) On TV, the series 24 has some good examples… after everything the heroes do to save the day, the bad guys still pulled off some decisive (and shocking) victories in the season 1 and 2 finales. Season 3’s finale is on tomorrow night (Tuesday 5/25), and I wonder how the villains are going to hit below the belt this year. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/48 "2004-05-24T20:42:09Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > **Schindler’s List** How so? Schindler saves the Jews without helping the Germans, the Nazis are defeated, and Goeth is executed. ---
**Author:** ![mallocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f4b2a3/32.png) [@mallocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mallocks)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/49 "2004-05-24T20:43:23Z")
I’m going to tentively suggest **Lord of the Flies**. Sure the mayhem is stopped at the end, but I’d say evil won out. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/50 "2004-05-24T20:47:36Z")
> [@Jervoise](#): > > I haven’t seen American Beauty in over a year, but on and first and second viewings I was left with a very strong impression that the kids would be framed with Lester’s murder. The scenes where girl is being filmed bitching about her dad and the boy offering to kill him are telling. I’m forgeting other scenes, but remember that the kids ran away from home the night of the murder too. I didn’t get that at all. I thought they were just trying to make it into a “whodunnit?”. The wife, the kids, and the neighbor were all portrayed as likely suspects, and the identity of the killer isn’t revealed until the end of the movie. The video of the kids talking about killing her dad was just a red herring, as was the wife’s jealousy. They were given motives for killing him so that the ending would be a surprise. I didn’t see it as an implication as to who might be blamed. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/51 "2004-05-24T21:01:20Z")
I just watched Hypercube last night. By the end of the movie, all the characters we’ve been following through the film are dead - some several times over! - and the bad guys got what they wanted. I haven’t seen the original Cube (yet…once I find it…), but I’m pretty sure it went the same way. ---
**Author:** ![noname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58f4c7/32.png) [@noname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noname)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/52 "2004-05-24T21:14:30Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > I think that’s sheer speculation on your part. There’s nothing in the movie that implies that outcome. In the script of the movie (available online), the daughter and the boy are framed for th musder, and the tape in which the boy volunteers to kill the girl’s father is used as evidence. Also, Lester’s wife marries the land broker. So its not so much as a speculation, as it was just not filmed. _Animal Farm_ ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/53 "2004-05-24T21:21:28Z")
**Fiver** I see on preview others have explained about the original ending. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/54 "2004-05-24T21:28:52Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > I haven’t seen the original Cube (yet…once I find it…), but I’m pretty sure it went the same way. Well Cube is way better then Hypercube. (that’s not saying much IMO) if you want a spoiler here you go Everyone is either killed by the Cube or murder each other except one autistic character. The last shot is him free wandering toward a bright light (freedom?) It’s not made clear if he’s nabbed by the makers of the cube or not. In this movie there’s no point to the cube just a government project that they used just because they made it. They no longer remembered even why they made it. Which was an interesting spin you don’t see gross incompetence as a villain often. Of course Hypercube has to jettison this idea for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/55 "2004-05-24T21:43:49Z")
**For Whom the Bell Tolls** **Dancer in the Dark** **The World According to Garp** ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/56 "2004-05-24T22:10:49Z")
i disagree with the antihero / hero definitions of the good guy and the bad guy. To me, the good guy is the guy you root for. The bad guy is the guy who, if he wins in the end, you leave the theater pissed off. Therefore, the horror movies don’t count. Who doesn’t root for Jason and Freddy? Also, Tarentino’s films are out. Despite being bad guys, you root for them, thus making them good guys. **Requiem For A Dream** fits the bill nicely:The director makes the comment that the story has five characters: four humans, and the fifth is addiction itself. He says: “This movie is about addiction’s triumph over the human spirit.” And he is exactly right. Every person you root for suffers unimaginable torment in the end. **Closet Land** fits even better, in a much more personal way than 1984. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/57 "2004-05-24T23:13:36Z")
I’d say **Seven** works out perfectly. Sure, the villain gets shot in the end, but that’s exactly what he wanted. He orchastrated the whole thing to get a bullet in the head, he got a bullet in the head, and died “justified”. As for _Watchmen_, I have to call a no on that as well, because again, Ozy wasn’t a villain, he was a superhero. This is the perfect anti-hero though…everything he did was to save the world, not destroy/conquer it. He didn’t do any of his evil deeds for his own benefit, but in order to make the world safer and bring about peace. Doesn’t really classify him as a villain (I don’t really know what you’d call him, though…) **Way of the Gun**. Sure, none of the people you’re routing for are really good, but the particular bad guys you are routing for get gunned down and left for dead in Mexico. I guess, technically, you could say **Suicide Kings**. Walken’s character gets his freedom, his finger attatched, his money back, and kills everyone who screwed him on the deal. Whether he counts as a “villain”, again, I’m not really sure, but he is the evil guy in the movie. In **The Arrival** , the two protagonists are still alive, but their efforts to halt the alien invasion are shot to shit. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/58 "2004-05-24T23:20:49Z")
> [@](#): > > As for Watchmen, I have to call a no on that as well, because again, Ozy wasn’t a villain, he was a superhero. This is the perfect anti-hero though…everything he did was to save the world, not destroy/conquer it. He didn’t do any of his evil deeds for his own benefit, but in order to make the world safer and bring about peace. Doesn’t really classify him as a villain (I don’t really know what you’d call him, though…) He wasn’t shy about profiting from his evil deeds though. There’s at least one scene that shows him buying stocks in companies he knows will go up after the crisis. He also in typical super villain style kills all his lackeys. In the end he committed a terrorist act to further his own goals the fact his goals were ‘noble’ doesn’t change anything. We all know the saying about the path to hell. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/59 "2004-05-24T23:40:21Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Also, Tarentino’s films are out. Despite being bad guys, you root for them, thus making them good guys. Then wouldn’t that make at least two of his films fit the bill? IIRC, in _Reservoir Dogs_, most if not all of the “good guys” get killed. And in _Pulp Fiction_, the lead gets it in the toilet. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/60 "2004-05-24T23:41:59Z")
\*\*Sweet Home Alabama \*\* – Reese Witherspoon’s protagonist emerges triumphant in love and reconciled with family, ex, old friends, and her hometown, in spite of having no redeeming personality traits whatsoever and having mistreated everyone from Day One, beginning with her jilted New York fiancee. :dubious: One Bond film has a downbeat ending: **On Her Majesty’s Secret Service**. Blofeld and Bundt almost assassinate Bond (hitting his bride instead) and, for the time being, get away with it. Another Woody Allen one – **The Purple Rose of Cairo**. Mia falls for an on-screen B-character, then the nice guy behind that character, then the cad actor for real, and then loses them all, with the cad actor and the Hollywood Studio System restoring the _status quo ante_, boo-hoo. \*\*Johnny Got His Gun \*\* – soldier suffers unimaginably – and denied a merciful euthanasia, must continue suffering. **Don’t Look Now** – the mysterious Venetian sociopaths win; British tourists lose. **The Comfort of Strangers** – the well-heeled Venetian sociopaths win; American tourists lose. \*\*A Death in Venice \*\* – affluent Venetian pedophile obsesses over underage English tourist… I don’t remember if the boy got buggered, though. _(Moral of the above: whatever you do, don’t go to Venice!)_ \*\*The Paper Chase \*\* – an ambitious, unscrupulous, self-absorbed law student passes his exams; one particularly likeable law student has a nervous breakdown drops out. The system wins, and society is set to get screwed by yet another generation of Harvard lawyers… 😃 \*\*Soylent Green \*\* – Charlton Heston finally finds out what’s for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, but has trouble spreading the word. **Sylvia** – in a heavy-handed treatment, cad hubby Ted Hughes drives Sylvia Plath to suicide, with an assist from his lover Assia. Film ends. IRL, however, Assia went on to kill herself in imitative fashion and Teddy boy suffered (somewhat) in ignominy as a feminists’ pariah for the rest of his life. **Monty Python’s The Life of Brian** – nice Jewish boy Brian Cohen gets crucified, while his spineless comrades in the Judean People’s Front (or was it the People’s Front of Judea?) get to keep attending their ineffectual meetings. :wally \*\*Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life \*\* – the business world is all dog-eat-dog; the poor Yorkshire children get sold for medical experiments; the underclassmen get pounded by the Masters; the grunts sacrifice themselves for their officers; the salesmen of “Live Organ Donors, Ltd.” collect their livers; a restaurant staff has a big mess to clean up; Death wipes out a booboisie dinner party… but it’s okay, because everybody ends up in Heaven in the end. An incredibly tacky, Vegas variety-show type of Heaven… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755.md?page=4)