# What book or movie has the 'badguys' winning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755 "2004-05-24T05:52:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/61 "2004-05-25T00:19:59Z")
One movie I’m surprised never gets mention whenever this subject comes up, particularly since it’s very well known: The Fast and The Furious. Let’s get one thing clear…Dominic Torretto is a _violent criminal_. He nearly killed a NASCAR driver over a completely blameless altercation, and he recently orchestrated the hijacking of several trailers full of electronic equipment. He’s brutal, short-tempered, and utterly devoid of compassion. And in the end, Brian O’Connor _gives him his car_ so he can escape. (And O’Connor himself gets away clean, of course.) Oh, and because Johnny Tran never has to answer for blowing up a car or assaulting a parts supplier, he gets the chance to murder a frightened young racer. On the whole, I’d say that evil definitely came out well on the positive side of the balance here. (Disagree with The Empire Strikes Back. At best, Darth Vader had a no-decision; Luke didn’t turn and the Millennium Falcon got away clean twice. And there were no good guys in Platoon…that was the whole _point_ of the movie…so any discussion of who won is kinda moot.) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/62 "2004-05-25T00:51:04Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Then wouldn’t that make at least two of his films fit the bill? IIRC, in _Reservoir Dogs_, most if not all of the “good guys” get killed. And in _Pulp Fiction_, the lead gets it in the toilet. You are definitely correct about _Reservoir Dogs_. Tim Roth is an honest to goodness good guy and he gets his. However, no bad guys win anything. In Pulp Fiction, I guess Bruce Willis is the winner, in that he kills John Travolta and gets a free pass from Ving Rhames. However, Butch is as close to a good guy as you get in Pulp Fiction and he wins big. (Unless you count “dead nigger storage” Jimmy, who also wins.) There’s probably way more movies where the good guy loses than there are where the bad guy wins. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/63 "2004-05-25T08:17:04Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > He wasn’t shy about profiting from his evil deeds though. There’s at least one scene that shows him buying stocks in companies he knows will go up after the crisis. He also in typical super villain style kills all his lackeys. Re: the stocks. Ozymandias was actually buying stocks on the basis of what was currently happening, but hedging his bets by not buying into anything that would fall if his plan worked. Re: the lackeys. His plan would _only_ work if the world didn’t know he had done it. He would have to be to ensure nobody could tell, and this was important enough that he couldn’t risk leaving anyone who knew of the plan alive. That doesn’t mean he liked it or wanted to do it; in fact, in his final conversation with Doctor Manhattan he says that he “made himself feel every death” and that he’s haunted by what he had to do, but he did it because for the world to survive someone had to. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/64 "2004-05-25T11:01:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Re: the stocks. Ozymandias was actually buying stocks on the basis of what was currently happening, but hedging his bets by not buying into anything that would fall if his plan worked. But he was still benefiting from his evil deeds which was my point. > [@](#): > > Re: the lackeys. His plan would only work if the world didn’t know he had done it. He would have to be to ensure nobody could tell, and this was important enough that he couldn’t risk leaving anyone who knew of the plan alive. That doesn’t mean he liked it or wanted to do it; in fact, in his final conversation with Doctor Manhattan he says that he “made himself feel every death” and that he’s haunted by what he had to do, but he did it because for the world to survive someone had to. Remorse for murder? Big deal he murdered people to cover his tracks. He let Night Owl and Laurie go and didn’t seem to be planning to ‘off’ them when Manhattan left. He didn’t seem too worked up about Rorschach taking off. If he could make a deal with them to not tattle he could have made it with his lackeys. Frankly I think much of what he did was for his own vanity and not for mankind. Bottom line is he committed a terrorist act. If Osama Bin Laden murdered 1,000 Arab youths and blamed it on the USA to unify the Arab community during the Iraq/Iran war we’d call the act evil. Even though it would have saved many many more lives in the long run. Just because Ozymandias did it on a larger scale for world peace doesn’t make it any more right. Though I do disagree with Rorschach wanting to go tell people anyway. After the fact there’d be no point other then screwing things up worse. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/65 "2004-05-25T12:46:14Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > How so? Schindler saves the Jews without helping the Germans, the Nazis are defeated, and Goeth is executed. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/66 "2004-05-25T13:17:01Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Exactly. Your pathetic attempt at wit - and I’m giving you benefit of the doubt here - leaves it looking like you believe the Nazis were the good guys and the Jews were the villains. If this is the case, please do say so you can be banned. If it isn’t, you’d better explain what you really meant in a hurry. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/67 "2004-05-25T13:22:17Z")
_Boys Don’t Cry_. Teena Brandon lives a miserable sort of a life but dreams of better days as a man, and her starry-eyed hope gets her raped then shot. Loaded with laughs. _Some flick with John Travolta trying to save a girl buried alive by a kidnapper_. He doesn’t. She’s dead. _Arlington Road_. Is Jeff Bridges’ neighbour a terrorist? Um, yes. And he uses Bridges to blow up whatever he wants to blow up too, and blows him up along with it. And everybody cries except Ross, who laughs like a drain and gets banished to look after the baby. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/68 "2004-05-25T13:32:27Z")
My there are a lot of them, aren’t there? How about this one that I saw the other night? **Swimming With Sharks** I won’t post a spoiler. If you haven’t seen it, I recommend this movie. ---
**Author:** ![lowblow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f0a364/32.png) [@lowblow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowblow)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/69 "2004-05-25T14:01:11Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Your pathetic attempt at wit - and I’m giving you benefit of the doubt here - leaves it looking like you believe the Nazis were the good guys and the Jews were the villains. If this is the case, please do say so you can be banned. If it isn’t, you’d better explain what you really meant in a hurry. Maybe he is a skin head. But would that get him banned? How does the banning work here? I am not saying it is right being skinhead but isn’t everybody entitled to their thoughts and opinions? ---
**Author:** ![Agrippina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Agrippina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agrippina)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/70 "2004-05-25T14:51:25Z")
**Amadeus** : If you consider Saleri the bad guy. Mozart has the last laugh because Saleri wastes away in a mental institution consumed with guilt, his music forgotten while Mozart’s legacy is as strong as ever. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/71 "2004-05-25T15:32:24Z")
> [@lowblow](#): > > Maybe he is a skin head. But would that get him banned? How does the banning work here? I am not saying it is right being skinhead but isn’t everybody entitled to their thoughts and opinions? Yes and no. If Trunk hates Jews - and I do say “if”, because it’s not yet proven - we can’t force him to change his mind. However, that doesn’t mean the SDMB mods have to allow the board to be used as a forum for preaching anti-Semitism. From the Rules: “You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the SDMB to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person’s privacy, or violative of U.S. law. You agree not to post material that in our opinion fosters or promotes activity that is illegal in the U.S.” Anti-Semitism definitely falls into several of those categories, and as such posting it here is a violation of your user agreement. ---
**Author:** ![lowblow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f0a364/32.png) [@lowblow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowblow)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/72 "2004-05-25T15:41:26Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > Yes and no. If Trunk hates Jews - and I do say “if”, because it’s not yet proven - we can’t force him to change his mind. However, that doesn’t mean the SDMB mods have to allow the board to be used as a forum for preaching anti-Semitism. > > From the Rules: > > “You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the SDMB to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person’s privacy, or violative of U.S. law. You agree not to post material that in our opinion fosters or promotes activity that is illegal in the U.S.” > > Anti-Semitism definitely falls into several of those categories, and as such posting it here is a violation of your user agreement. I totally see what you saying and agree but here is where it gets weird. Say me and you hate nazis(because they are the bad guys to the jews and our enemy during wwII is that considered hated too? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/73 "2004-05-25T15:59:46Z")
> [@lowblow](#): > > I totally see what you saying and agree but here is where it gets weird. Say me and you hate nazis(because they are the bad guys to the jews and our enemy during wwII is that considered hated too? No. Like any other crime, hate crime requires a victim. Nazis, being as they are best described as racist religious intolerants with a taste for genocide, don’t really fit the bill. Or to put it another way, if it is detestable to kill a man just because his skin is brown, what makes it more acceptable when a thousand men get together to do it? ---
**Author:** ![lowblow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f0a364/32.png) [@lowblow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowblow)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/74 "2004-05-25T16:15:40Z")
> [@Evil Death](#): > > No. Like any other crime, hate crime requires a victim. Nazis, being as they are best described as racist religious intolerants with a taste for genocide, don’t really fit the bill. > > Or to put it another way, if it is detestable to kill a man just because his skin is brown, what makes it more acceptable when a thousand men get together to do it? Oh I see ok. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/75 "2004-05-25T16:25:32Z")
> [@Ross](#): > > _Some flick with John Travolta trying to save a girl buried alive by a kidnapper_. He doesn’t. She’s dead. You’re not thinking about “Blow Out” are you? As I recall. . . **really don’t unspoil if you plan on seeing this, which is pretty good**. . . Travolta was a “sound guy” for a movie and he needed a woman’s scream. Long story short, he wired a woman who was used as a decoy for a prostitute murderer and they were going to ambush the murderer. They got confused and the girl ended up getting killed but he got the scream on tape. Sorry if this movie already came up. I didn’t read through the thread to check. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/76 "2004-05-25T17:06:40Z")
> [@Jervoise](#): > > Ha, even better. Sam Mendes filmed scenes of Wesley being convicted for Lester’s murder. Good grief. Way to make a bad movie worse. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/77 "2004-05-25T18:23:40Z")
**Ocean’s 11** The Clooney-Pitt version. Yes, they are delicious, but they robbed two vegas casinos man. I adore this film on so many different levels. > [@](#): > > You guys are pro’s, the best. I’m sure you can make it out of the casino, of course, lest we forget, once you’re out the front door, you’re still in the middle of the fucking desert! \*\*Three Kings \*\* Another Clooney film that is grossly under rated. Three good guys during Persian Gulf War until Gold is involved. \*\*Snatch \*\* Everyone is bad is this, cheating, swindling and killing each other. > [@](#): > > You show me how to control a wild f\*cking gypsy and I’ll show you how to control an unhinged, pig-feeding gangster. What is not to love? ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/78 "2004-05-25T19:44:11Z")
Being John Malkovich Breaker Morant ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/79 "2004-05-25T20:33:35Z")
> [@vl\_mungo](#): > > Breaker Morant And of course, its antecedent, _Paths of Glory_. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755/80 "2004-05-25T21:30:16Z")
I wouldn’t call it “unambiguous evil,” but they did get away with grand larceny in **Fun with Dick and Jane**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-book-or-movie-has-the-badguys-winning/246755.md?page=5)