# What Broke the Solid Democratic South? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406 "2008-11-06T03:39:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/21 "2008-11-07T04:02:01Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > That’s overstated. Jimmy Carter won the South in 1976; and in 1992, Clinton carried Arkansas, Tennessee, Georgia, Kentucky, and Louisiana. In 1996, he held all of those states except Georgia, and added Florida. Florida is not the south, other than in a strict geographical interpretation. (And Obama just won Florida.) ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/22 "2008-11-07T04:02:32Z")
I’d like to offer some complications to what has been said. While it is true that the Civil Rights Movement is highly important, there are several other things to remember: 1. There were some (albeit not many) Republican or Republican-leaning areas in the South, even in the period between the 1890s (when the Southern Republican parties have their final collapse, connected to the rise of Jim Crow) and the 1950’s. East Tennessee is the best known example, but there were others, including the German-heritage voters of rural Texas, the Shenandoah Valley and Fighting Ninth of Virginia, the westernmost part of North Carolina, and even (prior to 1928, at least) Acadia in Louisiana. 2. Presidentially, the Republicans had managed to carry Tennessee in 1920, and (thanks largely to anti-Catholic sentiment) won five states in 1928. 3. A breakthrough becomes visible in Southern states, starting in 1952. In the states in questions, reasons were varied. In some cases, changes in the electorate mattered (suburbanization in northern Virginia, the migrations into Florida), in some cases longstanding feuds mattered (for example, large factions of the Texas Democratic party had been fighting with the presidential ticket since 1940), and, in some cases, it is areas that had had Republican histories swinging much more to the party. Civil rights, moreover, had been causing Democrats Southern problems as early as the 1930s, with the fights over lynching legislation. These items, combined, demonstrate that, while the Civil Rights Movement was of high importance to the shift (especially in the Deep South, which had even stuck to Smith in 1928 and Stevenson in 1956), it is not the sole item to look at. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/23 "2008-11-07T04:10:48Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Following the Civil War, the south always voted as a block for the Democratic Party, in opposition to the Republicans and Abe Lincoln. > > It was not until the 1964 election, with Barry Goldwater as candidate, that the voters there realized that their political philosophy was MUCH more in line with the Republicans/conservatives, and the 1964 election was the first time they voted (as a block) for the Republicans. I always thought it was pretty funny, that they had been voting based on a 100-year-old tradition with no thought whatsoever that times had changed. It took Goldwater (then seen as extreme right-wing) and LBJ pushing for civil rights to make them realize that’s where their [del]rotten racist[/del] hearts were. The 100-year-old comment implies that the southern racists took a long time to realize that they needed to switch allegiance. However, it was only the 1940s when the southern Democrats were fillibustering in Congress to prevent passage of anti-lynching laws. The turnaround of the Democratic party into supporters of racial equality took place over less than a 20 year period in the south. And what astonishes me is that the Democratic party enjoyed the support of over 70% of blacks even back in the 1940s. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/24 "2008-11-07T04:22:43Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Florida is not the south, other than in a strict geographical interpretation. You ever been to Tallahassee? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/25 "2008-11-07T04:27:21Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > You ever been to Tallahassee? Okay, Florida is not the south other than a thin sliver that is really Georgia/Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/26 "2008-11-07T04:34:19Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > And what astonishes me is that the Democratic party enjoyed the support of over 70% of blacks even back in the 1940s. The Depression and the New Deal accomplished that - but prior to this black support for Republicans was akin to their support for Democrats today. This didn’t matter in the South, of course, where they could not vote. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/27 "2008-11-07T04:34:59Z")
The “Solid South” had already begun to break up over the civil rights issue by 1948, when the Truman and Humphrey advocated for a civil rights plank in the Democratic platform and the so-called “Dixiecrats” stormed out of the convention. Strom Thurmond ran as a States Rights Party candidate and [won Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and South Carolina](http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php?f=0&year=1948). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/28 "2008-11-07T04:38:14Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Okay, Florida is not the south other than a thin sliver that is really Georgia/Alabama. More than a sliver, my friend. You can hear Southern accents all the way down to Orlando and Tampa (though they do become more scattered the farther South you go). Jacksonville is very much a Southern town. Actually, Florida is like a microcosm of the Eastern US, with reversed polarity. Which is probably why it’s a swing state. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/29 "2008-11-07T04:43:52Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > More than a sliver, my friend. You can hear Southern accents all the way down to Orlando and Tampa (though they do become more scattered the farther South you go). Jacksonville is very much a Southern town. > > Actually, Florida is like a microcosm of the Eastern US, with reversed polarity. Which is probably why it’s a swing state. Jacksonville is indeed a redneck, er, I mean Sothern, town (how do you do strikethrough font formatting?), but by the time you get to Orlando I would say the southernness has been lost. Sure, you can hear southern accents, but they are in the minority. You can hear English accents too, but it is not part of the United Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/30 "2008-11-07T04:52:14Z")
Will Texas ever go Dem again? The last time was for LBJ, correct? (Not even for Humphrey, I would imagine) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/31 "2008-11-07T04:57:43Z")
Thanks to the association of Reconstruction with the Radical Republicans and lingering memories and distrust, there was a strong antipathy to the Republican Party in the Old South. Nonetheless, the area was largely conservative, with a progressive minority that nearly always gets disregarded but which elected a large number of candidates from Hugo Black to Sam Rayburn and LBJ to Sam Erwin. Net result was a conservative Southern wing to the Democratic Party, lasting about a century. The initial breaking point was when Hubert Humphrey pushed through, and Truman endorsed, a strong civil rights plank in the 1948 party platform. The “Dixiecrats”, the majority of that Southern conservative group, walked out and ran Strom Thurmond against Truman. The conservatives were more or less loyal Democrats but restive from then on until 1964, when LBJ’s support for civil rights and Goldwater’s conservatism pushed many of them to – horrors – vote Republican. And they discovered they liked the taste. In 1968, Nixon’s “Southern strategy” successfully weaned the South from the Democrats – albeit with Wallace’s third party that year. 1972 was a landslide for Nixon, and the 1976 election of Carter, which split the South, proved to be a fillip in a move to a solid Republican South – which lasted only 20 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/32 "2008-11-07T05:05:45Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > …the 1976 election of Carter, which split the South… Carter didn’t split the South, though. [He took it whole](http://www.presidentelect.org/e1976.html). > [@](#): > > ..proved to be a fillip in a move to a solid Republican South… Clinton took several Southern states in [1992](http://www.presidentelect.org/e1992.html) and again in [1996](http://www.presidentelect.org/e1996.html'). ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/33 "2008-11-07T09:32:39Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Jacksonville is indeed a redneck, er, I mean Sothern, town (how do you do strikethrough font formatting?), but by the time you get to Orlando I would say the southernness has been lost. Sure, you can hear southern accents, but they are in the minority. You can hear English accents too, but it is not part of the United Kingdom. Let me assure you that Haines City, Lakeland, Winter Haven, and Lake Wales are further south than Orlando and are culturally southern. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/34 "2008-11-07T10:08:23Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Following the Civil War, the south always voted as a block for the Democratic Party, in opposition to the Republicans and Abe Lincoln. > > It was not until the 1964 election, with Barry Goldwater as candidate, that the voters there realized that their political philosophy was MUCH more in line with the Republicans/conservatives, and the 1964 election was the first time they voted (as a block) for the Republicans. I always thought it was pretty funny, that they had been voting based on a 100-year-old tradition with no thought whatsoever that times had changed. It took Goldwater (then seen as extreme right-wing) and LBJ pushing for civil rights to make them realize that’s where their [del]rotten racist[/del] hearts were. To be fair, in the South the Democratic primaries were very clearly the competitive race, and that’s where the real fight was. You spent all your time and money trying to get nominated, because after that you were a shoo-in. Back then, the Democrats were as socially conservative as the Republicans, so it wasn’t that radical. Besides, their Congressmen represented their preferred views quite well. Only the Presidential elections were weird. Lyndon Johnson famously remarked to an aide after signing the Civil Rights Act “We have lost the South for a generation”. Look at old election maps- you’ll see a Democratic bastion in the Bible belt even in landslide Republican years like 1924, 1952, 1956, and 1920. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/35 "2008-11-07T11:41:50Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > That’s overstated. Jimmy Carter won the South in 1976; and in 1992, Clinton carried Arkansas, Tennessee, Georgia, Kentucky, and Louisiana. In 1996, he held all of those states except Georgia, and added Florida. Those two were the exception because of being southerners themselves. Until Obama, the only time electors from the old Confederacy were won by a northern Democrat since 1964 was Humphrey carrying Texas in 1968. Since then- McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, Kerry all pulled a big fat zero. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/36 "2008-11-07T11:47:25Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > how do you do strikethrough font formatting? [del] [/del] [del]but without the spaces[/del] ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/37 "2008-11-07T11:55:44Z")
Obama took North Carolina. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/38 "2008-11-07T11:59:54Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > [del] [/del] > > [del]but without the spaces[/del] Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/39 "2008-11-07T14:06:39Z")
[ul] [/ul] > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Will Texas ever go Dem again? The last time was for LBJ, correct? (Not even for Humphrey, I would imagine) The NY Times election map actually showed Texas as pale blue when early returns came in–from the cities & the (Rio Grande) Valley. Then rural & suburban votes were counted; Texas was the most populous state to go Republican. The [Houston Chronicle](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/6097683.html) shows Democrats hopeful for 2010. > [@](#): > > Upsets delivered to Republicans in Harris County elections and in legislative races across Texas had Democrats dreaming Wednesday of something that hasn’t happened in 14 years — possible victory in the statewide elections of 2010. > > Texas Democratic Chairman Boyd Richie, in a celebratory news conference, said his party had won races in Republican territory and added 688,000 more Democratic voters than cast ballots in 2004. > > “Democrats took a big step toward ending one-party Republican rule in Texas,” Richie said. “I’m looking forward to statewide success in 2010.” Our Republican “Governor Good Hair” (per the [late great Molly Ivins)](http://www.texasobserver.org/blog/#post-1220) may face Republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison in the 2010 Governor’s race. I love it when Republicans fight! Both of them & Republican Senator Cornyn are being mentioned as possible presidential nominees in 2012. Since ‘the state is a “shining star” for Republicans nationally.’ Did some research on [Texas’s presidential voting record](http://www.statemaster.com/red/state/TX-texas/pre-presidential-elections&all=1). Humphrey won the state, as did Carter–in his first election. All Republican since then… I needed no research to agree with those who “blame” the loss of the Solid Democratic South on LBJ & his support of civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406/40 "2008-11-07T17:06:55Z")
There were many reasons. It was in Stephan Ambrose’s excellent bio of Nixon that the Dems had taken the South for granted for so long that there was a lot of discontent anyway. Thus the civil rights movement was the catalyst. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-broke-the-solid-democratic-south/471406.md?page=3)