# What By The Rules of Major League Baseball...?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 5, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897 "2018-04-05T22:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/21 "2018-04-09T18:00:43Z")
> [@Ponch8](#): > > This just happened the other night. Ryan Braun stole second without a throw from Lester. Moments later, when he tried to steal third, Lester easily threw him out. See post #13 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/22 "2018-04-09T18:22:48Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Rule 5.06 (4) (G): OK, apparently I was mistaken. Thank you for looking that up. But my question still stands: if a player mistakenly hands the ball or tosses it to a fan, is the ball dead at that moment? Seems like it should be, though I’ve seen clips of panicked players retrieving the ball from the fan and throwing it in play. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/23 "2018-04-09T19:39:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > OK, apparently I was mistaken. Thank you for looking that up. But my question still stands: if a player mistakenly hands the ball or tosses it to a fan, is the ball dead at that moment? Seems like it should be, though I’ve seen clips of panicked players retrieving the ball from the fan and throwing it in play. When a fielder hands or throws a ball to a fan, the umpires treat it just like an accidental throw. Even if the fielder gets the ball back, the ball is dead and the baserunners will advance two bases with no danger of being put out. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/24 "2018-04-09T19:50:55Z")
> [@Ponch8](#): > > This just happened the other night. Ryan Braun stole second without a throw from Lester. Moments later, when he tried to steal third, Lester easily threw him out. > > [Jon Lester and Ryan Braun's duel on the basepaths ended with a nice bounce pass | MLB.com](https://www.mlb.com/cut4/ryan-braun-challenged-braun-jon-lester-on-the-basepaths/c-271063110) In this case, the successful stolen base wasn’t even on a pitch or throw. Braun (the runner) noticed that Lester wasn’t paying attention to him, and took off while Lester had the ball on the mound. Lester didn’t even try to make a play. On the second, unsuccessful steal attempt, Lester’s throw to third wasn’t very good (he bounced it), but it was in time to catch Braun. It’s hard to catch someone napping twice in such a short period. BTW, it looks to me like the first baseman didn’t say anything to Lester until it was too late. Braun took a huge walking lead before he started running. Someone on the Cubs should have alerted Lester so he could make a throw to first. Even a poor throw would have gotten Braun. Neither of these is quite the same as what we’ve been discussing, which is a steal on the catcher’s throw back to the pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/25 "2018-04-13T18:44:35Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Here’s one I’ve wondered about for a while. The rules say that baserunners are supposed to return to their bases after an uncaught foul ball, and that the umpire-in-chief shouldn’t put the ball back in play until this happens. It’s common, though, for a new ball to be put in play without the runners retouching their bases. The rules don’t specify a penalty for this, as far as I can tell. What would happen if, say, on a foul ball a runner on first base wandered over to within a foot of second and then stepped over and touched second as soon as the pitcher toed the rubber? Of course, this would be a big mistake on the part of the umpires, but how could they fix it? Would it be possible to tag the runner out at second even if he’s touching the base (because he’s not entitled to it)? Would an appeal play at first be possible? Would the umpires just call time out and order the runner to return to first? The rule didn’t always say that and one player tried it, standing with one foot over 2nd base. He said that no rule prevented that. The umpire said that no one was going to do that in any game he was in charge of. Guess who won. Then the rule was put in. But the umpires don’t necessarily enforce it strictly if no one is trying any funny business. Baseball can be informal that way. Another example: if a runner is doubled off base on an infield line drive, say, that is technically an appeal play and the umpire should not call the out unless asked. But if the intent is clear and obvious, they do without any need to appeal. This also raises the possibility of a 4th out. Here is how that works. Suppose runners on first and third, one out. There is a double steal attempt. A liner is hit to second, who catches it and throws to first for the third out of the inning. But before it gets there, the runner from third has crossed the plate. The run should count. Except that if the defense realizes what has happened, they can throw to third and appeal for a fourth out. Which will be allowed. Incidentally, I didn’t make this up; I read it in Bill James somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/26 "2018-04-13T19:32:53Z")
What if there’s a popup and someone tosses a bunch of other balls into the air, _Naked Gun_ style? I assume that would that be interference and an instant dead ball, instant out, followed by ejections and possible forfeit, depending on who interfered and how ornery the ump is that day? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/27 "2018-04-14T05:41:44Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The rule didn’t always say that and one player tried it, standing with one foot over 2nd base. He said that no rule prevented that. The umpire said that no one was going to do that in any game he was in charge of. Guess who won. Then the rule was put in. But the umpires don’t necessarily enforce it strictly if no one is trying any funny business. Baseball can be informal that way. Another example: if a runner is doubled off base on an infield line drive, say, that is technically an appeal play and the umpire should not call the out unless asked. But if the intent is clear and obvious, they do without any need to appeal. This also raises the possibility of a 4th out. Here is how that works. Suppose runners on first and third, one out. There is a double steal attempt. A liner is hit to second, who catches it and throws to first for the third out of the inning. But before it gets there, the runner from third has crossed the plate. The run should count. Except that if the defense realizes what has happened, they can throw to third and appeal for a fourth out. Which will be allowed. Incidentally, I didn’t make this up; I read it in Bill James somewhere. You can see a time it could have happened here. > **[Running Rajai's circus catch denies Detroit](https://www.mlb.com/guardians/news/rajai-davis-running-catch-seals-indians-win-c186033050)** > > DETROIT -- Former Tigers outfielder Rajai Davis made sure everyone knew his allegiances as he walked around the Indians' clubhouse, wearing socks with the image of the Cleveland skyline as he chatted before the game. By the time his work was done... Raj Davis made an incredible juggling catch of Cabrera’s fly almost to the fence. With one out in the 9th, the runners on first and second had taken off. Raj threw it in and Lindor (it’s normally the second baseman who takes relays from right center, but they had a shift on and I think Lindor took it) relayed it to the plate, but not in time to get the runner from second. They then threw to first doubling that runner off. Game over. Had they subsequently appealed at second, the “fourth out” would have replaced the third out and Cody Allen would not have been charged with an earned run. The description on that page can’t be quite right. If indeed Maybin took off from first, “believing Davis had dropped it”, he should not have been called out. When tagging up, you may run as soon as the ball is touched no matter how long it takes the fielder to secure the ball. I assume they meant to say Maybin went half way and didn’t tag up. I don’t know whether Kinsler tagged up at second or not. I suspect not as that would be quite a sprint to beat the trow all the way home, though some players have indeed scored from second on sacrifice flies, and this one with the depth of the fly and the juggling, would have been a good one to try on. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/28 "2018-04-14T13:48:14Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > You can see a time it could have happened here. > > [Rajai Davis' running catch seals Indians' win](https://www.mlb.com/indians/news/rajai-davis-running-catch-seals-indians-win/c-186033050) > > Raj Davis made an incredible juggling catch of Cabrera’s fly almost to the fence. With one out in the 9th, the runners on first and second had taken off. Raj threw it in and Lindor (it’s normally the second baseman who takes relays from right center, but they had a shift on and I think Lindor took it) relayed it to the plate, but not in time to get the runner from second. They then threw to first doubling that runner off. Game over. Had they subsequently appealed at second, the “fourth out” would have replaced the third out and\*\* Cody Allen would not have been charged with an earned run.\*\* Apparently no run was scored on that final play. The score is 7-4 when the last batter comes to the plate, and the final score is also 7-4. Is there a way to look up the official scorecard? ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/29 "2018-04-14T16:17:31Z")
> [@newme](#): > > Apparently no run was scored on that final play. The score is 7-4 when the last batter comes to the plate, and the final score is also 7-4. Is there a way to look up the official scorecard? I found the box score [here](https://www.mlb.com/gameday/indians-vs-tigers/2016/06/24/447963#game_state=final,lock_state=final,game_tab=box,game=447963). The final score was 7-5, not 7-4. **OldGuy** is right that they could have erased the fifth run by appealing at second, but the only point to it would have been to lower Allen’s ERA. The extra run made no difference in the outcome of the game. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/30 "2018-04-14T19:00:30Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > I found the box score [here](https://www.mlb.com/gameday/indians-vs-tigers/2016/06/24/447963#game_state=final,lock_state=final,game_tab=box,game=447963). The final score was 7-5, not 7-4. **OldGuy** is right that they could have erased the fifth run by appealing at second, but the only point to it would have been to lower Allen’s ERA. The extra run made no difference in the outcome of the game. My recollection, is the final score was reported as 7-4 even the next day in the papers as many people thing of those appeals as a force play (they’re treated as one as the baseman usually doesn’t actually appeal like they do on a missed base) so the run would not count. They did change it though. I recall watching the game and yelling at the TV for them to appeal at second, but they didn’t listen. I recall another game a few years earlier when (I believe) a runner from third tagged and scored while a runner on first was running. He was doubled off, but not until after the runner from third had crossed the plate. The scoreboard didn’t show the run. A few innings later the umpires informed the teams the run counted. I always wondered if that was grounds for appeal as the extra run could have changed strategies. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/31 "2018-04-14T19:06:13Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > What if there’s a popup and someone tosses a bunch of other balls into the air, _Naked Gun_ style? I assume that would that be interference and an instant dead ball, instant out, followed by ejections and possible forfeit, depending on who interfered and how ornery the ump is that day? There was a play something like this in 1959 (?). Braves at bat vs I don’t recall. Batter checked his swing ball sailed past everyone to the backstop. Catcher said foul tip, ump said no, but he did put a new ball into the cather’s hand. Catcher threw to second trying to get the runner advancing from first and threw it into center field. Meanwhile the third (or possibly first) baseman had run and collected the original ball. Runner saw the ball go into center so he took off for third only to be tagged out with the original ball held by the shortstop (I believe). Ump ruled him out. That seemed like a travesty to me. Fairest thing would have been to allow him to stay on second. Second fairest call the ball dead and return him to first. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/32 "2018-04-14T19:19:46Z")
I mis-remembered this, but got the gist right. It was the Cards not the Braves. Stan Musial walked and continued on to second then he saw the ball not picked up. > **[Big League Baseball Puzzlers](https://books.google.com/books?id=BK8ORwtjPo4C&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=%22two%2Bballs%2Bin%2Bplay%22%2Bcardinals%2Bbaseball&source=bl&ots=zukEqnJbtn&sig=36uzy3huTnuGrSAHvtdV0sAK1aQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZp6OrvLraAhUmTd8KHfvoBy8Q6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=%22two%20balls%20in%20play%22%20cardinals%20baseball&f=false)** > > These challenging game situations have stumped players, managers--and even umpires! Some are real and some are hypothetical, but each of these 40 tough calls is in the megaleague rule book. There are dozens of great drawings, too. For those interested in strange plays there are a lot in that book. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897/33 "2019-08-22T20:35:43Z")
I have continued to take my son to baseball games, and he has continued with his teenaged angles thereof. I recently had this conversation with him, now 15 years old, at Citi Field a few weekends ago, home of the NY Mets. > [@](#): > > “If a ball hits a bird in flight in fair territory, drops down and a fielder catches it, is that an out?” > > “Yes. A batted ball that has hit a bird remains in play; if caught, it’s an out, if not, it’s a hit. It actually happened to a Mets outfielder, Kevin McReynolds, in the '80s. He was tracking to catch a fly ball when it hit a bird and both just fell from the sky. The runner ended up getting a double.” > > “So what if instead of falling to the field, it deflected out of the field fair, over the wall. Would it be a home run?” > > “I suppose so. I mean, it’d be like a combo of that play, and the Jose Canseco Dome Run. [If you don’t know what that means… GO SEARCH IT ON YOUTUBE NOW. --ed.] As long as a live ball in play goes over the wall, it’s a home run.” > > “So what if I got a falcon trained to go after a baseball in flight and bring it to me, and then sat in the outfield seats?” > > “Ballpark security will not let you enter with a falcon on your arm.” > > “No, but maybe I could train it to sit on a flagpole, and go after the ball on cue. And I waited for when the Mets needed a walkoff home run to win.” > > “It’d be pretty suspicious when the falcon brings you the home run ball.” > > “OK, so I train it to fly out of the ballpark into the parking lot.” > > “You seem to have given this a lot of thought.” > > “Not really.” This is the same kid who, when he was turning 4 years old, wanted to have a Mets themed birthday party, because his Dear Old Dad loved watching the Mets all the time, and dressed him up in little Mets outfits. Like, Mets balloons and decorations and cake and all that. He brought this up about a week before. The date of this party was scheduled on Sunday, September 30th, 2007, the final game of the Mets season that year. Yes, THAT year. Not wanting to ruin his birthday if the Mets fell into the sinkhole that the bullpen was rapidly digging for them, I deflected him to choosing a Spider-Man party theme instead. As we set up for the party, I listened to the game via an earphone to a portable AM radio. The baseball game began at 1:10pm, and was basically over by 1:20pm as Tom Glavine quickly gave up 7 runs to the last place Marlins. I put away the radio and proceeded to conduct his birthday party with the TV off and as if the Mets did not exist. I did check the score every 20 minutes or so to see if the Mets might be mounting a comeback, but no. Meanwhile, the Phillies won their final game and overtook the Mets by one game to win the division, precluding the Mets from the 2007 playoffs (yea, unto 2015 were they banished). I mentioned this to him recently, and guess what? _ **He says I jinxed the Mets with my lack of faith.** _ :eek: “You basically admitted it could happen. Which means, in some sense, you MADE it happen.” “WHAT? Seriously? You’re gonna try to lay that collapse on ME?” “Just saying. You didn’t believe. You didn’t even let a child believe. You lost them the belief of a CHILD. Isn’t that, like, the most powerful magic there is?” Well, guess what? His birthday this year is once again, the last game of the 2019 season. A season where the once-dead Mets are now fighting to make a to-the–finishing-line surge for a playoff berth. If the Mets are in a win-and-in, lose-and-snooze scenario again on a final game that is on his birthday, I am going to force him to have a Mets themed birthday party. Balloons, decorations, and orange and blue ice cream cake - the whole 60 feet, 6 inches. I don’t care if he’s turning sixteen! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-by-the-rules-of-major-league-baseball/811897.md?page=1)