# What came first, the orange or orange? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 28, 2006, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967 "2006-01-28T08:18:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/41 "2006-01-29T01:07:22Z")
> [@Miss Purl McKnittington](#): > > …At that point I ran out of color names. Try some of these: [http://phrontistery.info/colours.html](http://phrontistery.info/colours.html) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/42 "2006-01-29T03:17:03Z")
> [@Miss Purl McKnittington](#): > > Oh, and I should add that madder was one of the cheapest dyestuffs and was used by just about anyone who could afford dyed fabric. Slight hijack, but: To your knowledge, has the fat of blue crabs ever been used as a source of clothing dye? I ask because it is a vivid orange color, and readily stains clothing (folks around here in Louisiana love some boiled crabs). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/43 "2006-01-29T03:27:29Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > There are several problems with attributing he origin of the word pink to the plant, not least was the apparent usage of the word before the plant came into existence. What do you mean by this? Are you saying that the species _Dianthus plumarius_ came into existence after the word, or that it’s some kind of cultivar? In any case, there are lots of wild species of pink, many of which are pink. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/44 "2006-01-29T03:38:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “orange” and similar words are ultimately derived from Sanskrit “naranga” (itself probably derived from a non-IndoEuropean substrate language) Proto-Dravidian \*\*naru-\*. Cf. Tamil _nāru_ ‘to sprout up; be fragrant’. So not ultimately from Sanskrit, but penultimately. Ultimately from Dravidian, as I noted in one of the linked threads. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/45 "2006-01-29T04:05:01Z")
I’ve no idea, **bordelond**. I mostly stick to England in the sixteenth and very early seventeenth centuries, and the majority of dyes that I’m aware of are plant-based. The only animal-based dyes I can think of, and they’re really insect-based, are kermes and cochineal, both shades of red. Crushed mollusks (Murex) were also used for purple, but fell out of favor sometime in the fifteenth or sixteenth century. I’m not really sure of how the dye was extracted, but here’s a [page](http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/support/lib/seas/seasQA/QAs/d/dyes.html) about dying with Tyrian purple, the color that came out of Murex shells. That’s the best I can give you on whether or not crabs were ever used for dyeing. There’s a whole host of factors that could contribute to crabs being a viable dyesource. **Mangetout** , thanks for the link. I’ll choose some of the more French-y looking ones and submit them to the OED test. > [@Colibri](#): > > What do you mean by this? Are you saying that the species Dianthus plumarius came into existence after the word, or that it’s some kind of cultivar? In any case, there are lots of wild species of pink, many of which are pink. I ran across something interesting regarding pink in my quest of the French influence on color names. The etymology is apparently pretty obscure, but some think that it comes from the Germanic root word _pink(e)_, meaning small, and refers not to the color of the plant but its size. (The original meaning of pink is seen in such phrases as _pinkie finger_ and _pink-eye_, the last of which has an interesting history itself.) Dianthus has pink flowers, and so the color came to be. The OED cites the first use of pink meaning a member of the Dianthus family to be in 1573, and the first use of pink meaning the color of the plant in 1681. The OED also says that there’s no evidence that the plant is named so for its jagged petals, as there’s no evidence that pink meant to cut something in a crenellated fashion before the 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/46 "2006-01-29T20:08:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Thanks for the linked thread, **FlippyFly**. I cannot understand why **yabob** wasn’t lynched on the spot. Groooooaan. I’d respond to that, but it would probably just make you madder … ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/47 "2006-01-30T13:07:05Z")
Just an afterthought; probably the best candidate for a _prototypical and native_ orange object in the British Isles would be the berries of the Rowan tree (Sorbus Aucuparia) - The berries (which are edible and would have been an important foodstuff to ancient Britons) occur in a range of colours from scarlet-orange through to blood red. However, the name _Rowan_ apparently derives from a term meaning _becoming red_. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/48 "2006-01-30T13:21:01Z")
Aarrgggh, there he goes again! Git 'im, boys! ( **yabob** that is) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/49 "2006-01-30T13:41:57Z")
Interesting Sidenote Alert: In Afrikaans, the colour “Orange” is “_Oranje_”, like you’d expect. But the fruit, “Orange”, is “_Lemoen_” , clearly a reference to lemons. So what do Afrikaners call lemons, you ask? “Suurlemoen”. “Sour Orange”. I have no idea how or why this jump was made, I’m pretty sure that’s not the Dutch word for orange fruit. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967/50 "2006-01-30T14:00:44Z")
The Citrus family plays host to a few such quirks of language; the words for: Lemon (Citrus Limon) Lime (Citrus Latifolia and Citrus Aurantifolia) Citron (Citrus Medica) Are variously crossed or mismatched when comparing a number of different languages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-came-first-the-orange-or-orange/341967.md?page=2)