# What can a straight man do a gay man can't? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849 "2012-07-20T13:44:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/61 "2012-07-21T20:08:52Z")
In Holland gay men are allowed to donate blood, but only if they never had sex with a man. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/62 "2012-07-21T20:13:18Z")
> [@Montague](#): > > My thought about government involvement in marriage is this: churches need to be stripped of their right to administer legally binding contracts. That is the business of government, and the churches should have no place in this area. Instead, government should entirely take over the institution of marriage as a legal status and as a contractual agreement between consenting adults who are eligible to enter such an agreement. Churches should be able to celebrate holy matrimony for whomever wishes to add that recognition to their marriage contract, but it should have no standing under the law. Marriage under that definition should be open to whomever wants to be married as long as they are human, of age, and eligible to enter into legally binding contracts. Government already controls the institution of marriage. Churches are simply a surrogate for one (minor) function - solemnizing the marriage. You can go have a justice of the peace or judge or clerk do it instead; letting a clergyman sign the contract just reduces the strain on government resources. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/63 "2012-07-21T20:13:47Z")
> [@raskolnik](#): > > -The reason my wording has been so clear is that this was never intended, nor meant as a gay marriage debate. The fact is based on this thread, with the exception of gay marriage, no one seems able to list a single, factual, current civic statue that punishes gay men, with the exception of > 1)anti-sodomy laws which have been largely ruled unconstitutional > 2)blood donations (which is an area I know little about) > -Remember that private organization are allowed to discriminate. I can’t get a scholarship that is given to a woman, or a black man, nothing wrong with that. Just to clarify, your position is that being deprived of a right is not actual punishment – is that correct? For instance, if my state (Wisconsin) declared a policy that no gays would be hired for state jobs, is that punishment? [According to this wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_adoption), gay couples in Utah, Louisiana and Arkansas cannot adopt. This was also true in Florida until a court threw out the law in late 2010. Is this punishment? Also keep in mind that marriage confers additional rights than just being married. As others have noted, there are other benefits to married couples, including inheritance laws, the right to make decisions for a disabled partner, and even tax benefits. I’m not don’t think any of these can be considered “punishment” by a very narrow definition of the term. No one is being sent to prison or levied with fines to pay. But what this all adds up to is a denial of equality, and a denial of opportunity to gain from the benefits that anyone else may gain. To me, that constitutes punishment. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/64 "2012-07-21T21:32:13Z")
> [@raskolnik](#): > > -The reason my wording has been so clear is that this was never intended, nor meant as a gay marriage debate. The fact is based on this thread, with the exception of gay marriage, no one seems able to list a single, factual, current civic statue that punishes gay men, with the exception of > 1)anti-sodomy laws which have been largely ruled unconstitutional > 2)blood donations (which is an area I know little about) > -Remember that private organization are allowed to discriminate. I can’t get a scholarship that is given to a woman, or a black man, nothing wrong with that. Yes clearly because the government doesn’t maintain specific punishments to gays for being gay, gays aren’t being discriminated against. You win we’ll put down our rainbow flags and cancel our gay pride parades. There is no equality left to fight for because a gay man can legally do almost anything a straight man can legally do. Equal rights advocates need to stop fighting these battles and pick up the banner for the straight white men out there. They aren’t provided any special rights and if you look at the non-existent evidence, you’ll see how they are at a clear disadvantage in our society. ---
**Author:** ![D-bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@D-bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D-bear)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/65 "2012-07-21T22:12:38Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Yes clearly because the government doesn’t maintain specific punishments to gays for being gay, gays aren’t being discriminated against. You win we’ll put down our rainbow flags and cancel our gay pride parades. There is no equality left to fight for because a gay man can legally do almost anything a straight man can legally do. > > Equal rights advocates need to stop fighting these battles and pick up the banner for the straight white men out there. They aren’t provided any special rights and if you look at the non-existent evidence, you’ll see how they are at a clear disadvantage in our society. I’m glad that I’m not the only one who found this slightly insulting/offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/66 "2012-07-21T23:09:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, yes, nations outside the USA. But still in the USA, laws against stuff like “public” sex are enforced strongly against gays, loosely vs straights, in some juristictions. Look at the Fred Willard case at the Tiki Theatre, where it’s basically a gay sex hang-out. The owner was complaining the police are always harrassing him. The LAPD are notorious for being homophobic. > > Well certain Condo associations or government housing may have restrictions like that. I’m having trouble understanding exactly what you’re replying to. If I can attempt to restate, you’re saying three things: 1. Lawrence v. Texas did strike down all the anti-sodomy laws that pertained to consenting adults in private, but sometime public sex laws are enforced more strongly against gay men than others. I suspect that this is true, and it’s a good point: even if the law is equal here, enforcement may not be due to prejudice. 2. Condo associations may have covenants against non-married, non-related adults living together. This was sort of my point - they may, but are they enforceable anywhere in the United States? 3. Government housing may limit benefits to married partners. Yeah, that’s probably true. I think this goes in the bucket of things which are denied to homosexual couples because they cannot marry in the eyes of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/67 "2012-07-22T02:01:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Really, though, the biggest issue is that a right of survivorship can only be created at the time of the conveyance. If your partner bought the property before you were together, it’s too late. The property can still be willed to you, but has to be probated just like everything else. For some reason I thought you were a real estate professional, but I guess not. A quit-claim deed is a conveyance; it is what is generally used when a person who bought a house before hooking up puts his/her partner on the deed. I think there are other ways to do it–it’s been so long since I was in real estate that I’ve forgotten, and things change. But that was the most usual way and, I believe, still is. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/68 "2012-07-22T03:16:28Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Someone mentioned housing earlier: is there anywhere in the United States where it’s enforceable to ban unrelated, unmarried adults from living together? [This is the story I was thinking of.](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-1625059.html) So two unmarried adults _could_ live there, so long as they don’t have more than one child. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/69 "2012-07-22T05:23:55Z")
Straight men have no trouble buying cakes. [Sometimes gay men do](http://blogs.westword.com/cafesociety/2012/07/masterpiece_cakeshop_refuses_to_bake_a_wedding_cake_for_gay_couple.php). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/71 "2012-07-22T13:50:00Z")
Why does this thread title play in my head as sung by Ethel Merman? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/72 "2012-07-22T15:53:22Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Why does this thread title play in my head as sung by Ethel Merman? Anything you can do I can do better. I can do anything better then you. I can get married better then you. um uh yes you can. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/73 "2012-07-22T18:05:19Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > Do you live in the USA? If so, your family can’t inherit someone else’s property. > > Two people buying a home together is a common event, and it’s not limited to gay people. > > If you bought the house together, then you and your partner/spouse would be on the deed as joint tenants with rights of survivorship. One owner dies, and their property interest transfers to the surviving owner, when then becomes the sole owner. Your family can’t take away their property. I was under the impression that anything that can be recognized as owned jointly is not restricted to being owned by people in a specified relationship in a strict legal context. So you could own a car jointly with your niece or have a joint bank account with grandma’s childhood BFF’s first cousin’s former roommate’s probation officer. Whether or not such an arrangement is practically helpful is another matter. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/74 "2012-07-23T03:03:27Z")
I know you didn’t intend this as a gay marriage debate, but since being gay is about sexual\* relationships \*as well as simply who you’re sexually attracted to, it’s a bit odd to discount one of the biggest legal differences when it comes to sexual relationships. Most of the legal differences come into play when marriage, benefits and kids are involved and they are not tangential to having all of those someone of the same sex. Also remember that some changes in law are very recent indeed, like the Texas sodomy laws. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I was under the impression that anything that can be recognized as owned jointly is not restricted to being owned by people in a specified relationship in a strict legal context. So you could own a car jointly with your niece or have a joint bank account with grandma’s childhood BFF’s first cousin’s former roommate’s probation officer. Whether or not such an arrangement is practically helpful is another matter. It generally costs a lot more to do these things than just being married, especially if you’re not wealthy so there’s a greater economy cost to just adding another person to an insurance policy (etc) whereas for married couples it’s either free or doesn’t cost much. IOW, if you’re wealthy or doing OK financially and also very organised then you might be OK financially, but rights should not only be for those people. An example: if you were a low-earning legally-married spouse of a higher-earning opposite-sex partner then your partner could get a mortgage and own the house in which you lived, while you paid what you could and took more time out to raise the kids - like many women used to do and to some extent still do - but you wouldn’t be named on the mortgage. Then if your partner died and you inherited the house, you wouldn’t have to pay inheritance tax. Because you’re married. Not so if you’re not married. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/75 "2012-07-23T05:58:48Z")
The problem with the joint ownership issue is that, until recently, gay relationships have always been more casual than straight ones. Two guys discover that they’re compatible, one of them moves in with the other, and since there’s no “next step” of marriage available, the arrangement just continues as is, with no thought to what happens if the actual “owner” should suddenly die . . . often complicated by possibly antagonistic families. Even with AIDS, there’s usually plenty of time following diagnosis to get the legalities straightened out. But in the early years of the epidemic, people were dropping like flies, and there were countless nightmare scenarios of people losing everything they owned, even their own personal belongings from prior to the relationship. Many people were caught off-guard, not accustomed to considering the legalities of their relationship. But over the last few decades we’ve learned not to always be so casual, and that’s why marriage, with all its rights and benefits, has become more desirable than previously. Straight couples, no matter how casual, at least have the \*\*\*possibility \*\*\* of marriage on their minds, and often there are kids involved. So they’re used to looking at things more long-term. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/76 "2012-07-23T13:04:45Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > An example: if you were a low-earning legally-married spouse of a higher-earning opposite-sex partner then your partner could get a mortgage and own the house in which you lived, while you paid what you could and took more time out to raise the kids - like many women used to do and to some extent still do - but you wouldn’t be named on the mortgage. Then if your partner died and you inherited the house, you wouldn’t have to pay inheritance tax. Because you’re married. Not so if you’re not married. Again, not true. You can leave your house to anyone in a will, and you can buy a house together without being married. (There’s no reason to bring in _named on the mortgag_e as it means nothing in this context). In any case, the exclusion is **$2MM** so, there’s no Federal Estate tax for the 99%. Now true, there is a extra exclusion, _on top of that $2MM_, for a primary residence will to a spouse. Estate tax is just not a problem for 99% of the people. Gay or straight. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/77 "2012-07-23T13:53:13Z")
I think you (OP) misunderstand discrimination. It is rarely institutionalized the way it was against Blacks last century. It is more commonly akin to bullying: the culture at large doesn’t like you, so they’re going to make life unpleasant in oh so many little ways (the death of a thousand cuts) until you either become like the mainstream or move on. The most common way of “moving on” is moving to a more liberal, urban area, but suicide is also a big one. F’r instance, try being a single yet openly gay elementary school teacher in most of America. Is it illegal? No. Could you be fired for merely identifying as gay? Depends on the state. Would being a single yet openly gay elementary school teacher cause you difficulty? Why yes, yes it would, because in many places, especially where children are concerned, the fear-to-cluefulness ratio is quite high. Ask a woman how often she gets unwanted attention from straight men asking her out. I think you’d be surprised at the response. Now imagine you’re a single gay man. You really like Tom, a burly construction worker. Ask him out: the worst he can do is say no, right? I mean, it’s not LEGAL for him and his friends to beat the shit out of you, so you’re good, right? Or maybe Tom was actually kinda into you. You go down to the beach for a picnic. Hold hands watching the sunset, or give him a kiss: romantic moment, just like the guy-and-girl couple six beachtowels down. Perfectly legal, so naturally there’s no repercussions, right? So yeah, on paper, pretty equal except for the marriage thing. And they’re not Civil Rights violations, just one class of people held to a different standard than another. Of course, I suspect that’s only because gays are an invisible minority. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/78 "2012-07-23T14:15:56Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > For some reason I thought you were a real estate professional, but I guess not. A quit-claim deed is a conveyance; it is what is generally used when a person who bought a house before hooking up puts his/her partner on the deed. I think there are other ways to do it–it’s been so long since I was in real estate that I’ve forgotten, and things change. But that was the most usual way and, I believe, still is. That’s not the point. Adding your partner to the deed creates a _present_ ownership interest in the property. Your partner gains half an ownership interest in the property. It does not create a right of _survivorship_ - the right for your partner to inherit _your_ interest in the property. Hence, if you die, your partner gets half the house, but won’t necessarily get your half (and won’t get it automatically, which is the important thing). He might also have to pay estate taxes on your half. If somebody else inherits- say, your mother who hates that you’re gay and blames your partner for turning you from the path of Christ, or whatever- they can force a sale (among other things). ETA: **DrDeth** , the threshold for _state_ estate taxes can be much lower than $2 million. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/79 "2012-07-23T17:59:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not the point. Adding your partner to the deed creates a _present_ ownership interest in the property. Your partner gains half an ownership interest in the property. It does not create a right of _survivorship_ - the right for your partner to inherit _your_ interest in the property. Hence, if you die, your partner gets half the house, but won’t necessarily get your half (and won’t get it automatically, which is the important thing). He might also have to pay estate taxes on your half. > > If somebody else inherits- say, your mother who hates that you’re gay and blames your partner for turning you from the path of Christ, or whatever- they can force a sale (among other things). > > ETA: **DrDeth** , the threshold for _state_ estate taxes can be much lower than $2 million. Sorry, but the QC is a new deed. I bought a house before I was married, and some years later realized it would be a good idea to have my husband on the deed, so I did a QC. The form I used had two items–joint tenancy with right of survivorship and tenancy in common. It was a cheap do-it-yourself form, and you crossed out that one that didn’t apply. No need for lawyers, unless you needed someone to explain what JTROS meant as opposed to tenancy in common. It was not some magical condition of being married that did it. There are a few states–not Colorado, but a few–that are community property states and things may be different there, although I think not. I think even in one of those states if I bought the place before I was married I would have to take steps to share the ownership with my spouse, or anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/80 "2012-07-23T18:03:26Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I think even in one of those states if I bought the place before I was married I would have to take steps to share the ownership with my spouse, or anyone else. Texas is a community property state. A home bought before the marriage would still automatically go to the spouse but there may be an extra legal hurdle to clear to make sure the title was clear and that the spouse was actually the spouse and so on. It’s actually a lot more trouble to arrange things so property doesn’t automatically go to the spouse. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849/81 "2012-07-23T18:15:39Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Sorry, but the QC is a new deed. I bought a house before I was married, and some years later realized it would be a good idea to have my husband on the deed, so I did a QC. The form I used had two items–joint tenancy with right of survivorship and tenancy in common. It was a cheap do-it-yourself form, and you crossed out that one that didn’t apply. No need for lawyers, unless you needed someone to explain what JTROS meant as opposed to tenancy in common. It was not some magical condition of being married that did it. There are a few states–not Colorado, but a few–that are community property states and things may be different there, although I think not. I think even in one of those states if I bought the place before I was married I would have to take steps to share the ownership with my spouse, or anyone else. Hmmm. Seems you’re right, which is the opposite of what we were taught (that fictional property transfers are void). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-a-straight-man-do-a-gay-man-cant/628849.md?page=5)