# What can be done to improve communism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830 "2005-01-21T00:29:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/21 "2005-01-21T11:30:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Yea yea, we all know that, did you have anything else to add? Aside from a wikopedia reference on the wrong topic I mean. Apologies, I was unaware that brief answers to the OP were unwelcome. So I’ll jsut agreee with **Lib** that if money, ownership and property rights are ever to become curiosities of history like slavery and human sacrifice, it will only be though a _voluntary_ act, _ie._ government and its equivalents must be _voted_ into non-existence. ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/22 "2005-01-21T12:33:12Z")
as others have said, under a communist system their is no incentive for people to go above and beyond the call of duty. by necessity some people must be more equal than others, in order to make the decisions and that power will always result in corruption. In addition capitalism is to some extent self organising, you get paid by your employer and then manage your own private finances, you or your employer are responsible for paying your taxes to the government. Communism requires a huge centralised bureaucracy to make sure that everyone gets their share, with all the obvious civil liberty implications and potential for corruption. I think that communism can work, just not with human beings on a large scale. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/23 "2005-01-21T12:51:46Z")
One more for the “it doesn’t work at a basic level”. Humans are the weak link. I’d love to live in a “equal” society… but I don’t think that others should be forced into it. In the end my lazy side would prevail knowing that the State will provide. While individual risk and entrepeneuship would suffer. If the middle class owned much more shares and stock that would eventually make for a more “communistic” society. Where all would own the means of production and wealth inequality would be minimized. Where corporations would be owned by their employees… you would have the incentive too. The problem would be that some corporations eventually would be more sucessful… buy out others… etc… and inequality all over again. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/24 "2005-01-21T13:30:55Z")
Probably the best working example of communism I can think of is a NYC co-op appartment. These are basically appartments where all the tenents own shares in the building. The co-op board consisting of residents of the building makes every decision regarding the building - who gets to live there, maintenance, what color you can paint your appartment, EVERYTHING. They are notorious for being corrupt, petty and overbearing. Communism is fundamentally unable to work at any level as anything but a tyrany of the majority. > [@](#): > > The problem would be that some corporations eventually would be more sucessful… buy out others… etc… and inequality all over again. But that’s ok. The objective is not to make everyone the same. It’s to maximize the opportunity for people to share is the success. Unfortunately, it also means that we share in the risk of failure. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/25 "2005-01-21T13:31:21Z")
> [@enigmatic](#): > > as others have said, under a communist system their is no incentive for people to go above and beyond the call of duty. This is an important observation. This is exactly what we have to turn around. We have to make sure that a communist system _preserves_ incentives for people to go above and beyond. And that is not at all impossible. Look at the Free Software and Open Source Software movements. Numerous people turn out to be very highly motivated to write better and better software and _freely share_ their work with the community. Those are the impulses we have to develop and build on in a communist society. (I know very well that the situation is more complex than that, the analogy should not be overinterpreted, it is just one example illustrating that tendencies to support communism do exist in human nature.) ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/26 "2005-01-21T13:38:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Probably the best working example of communism I can think of is a NYC co-op appartment. … They are notorious for being corrupt, petty and overbearing. So that is an important lesson to learn, and something to _avoid_ in a communist system. I know many more of these “counter-examples”. Intuitively appealing but proven not to work in practice. E.g. worker-owned enterprises. These do not tend to do very well at all in many respects, e.g. innovation, good management, absence petty politicking etc. It is important to consider what exactly is wrong with such organizations and apply those lessons. (I reject the “human nature” cop-out. Human nature encompasses a great variety of impulses and great individual variation, good and bad. There should be incentives to bring out the good tendencies.) ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/27 "2005-01-21T15:44:20Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Basically, this is a return to a city-state system. Possible risks include civil wars and secession… which is why the central government would have to be the sole provider of the military. But you would still have to draw your manpower from the city-states. I see this as having the same problems as the U.S. in 1861 - officers and men leaving the army rather than fight against their own state. > [@Frankenstein Monster](#): > > Look at the Free Software and Open Source Software movements. Numerous people turn out to be very highly motivated to write better and better software and _freely share_ their work with the community. Those are the impulses we have to develop and build on in a communist society. See, we _told_ you: Linux = Communism B. Gates (no relation) Redmond, Washington ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/28 "2005-01-21T15:52:26Z")
Thanks for the replies, most of you. I would like to note that I personally believe that communism is impossible on a large economic system for the reasons noted and others, but well suited to smaller systems (say, within a small community or company). By studying what works and what doesn’t work, we are able to look more objectively at other systems. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/29 "2005-01-22T15:56:40Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Thanks for the replies, most of you. > > I would like to note that I personally believe that communism is impossible on a large economic system for the reasons noted and others, but well suited to smaller systems (say, within a small community or company). By studying what works and what doesn’t work, we are able to look more objectively at other systems. Just out of curiosity, what conclusions have you objectively drawn about any other system? ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/30 "2005-01-22T16:16:05Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what conclusions have you objectively drawn about any other system? Well, I’m only familiar with two other systems: Capitalism and Socialism. Like communism, socialism works best with a smaller group, or a single-industry based society, where government control can be managed. The problem here is that you have to have a buyer for your product, and it has to be enough to pay for the social services. Capitalism works well with complex markets, though it leads to high income disparity and stratification. The weak point of capitalism is that it inherently disregards the wellbeing of individuals, which when combined with stratification means it can be an instrument of repression. Thus, governments must adjust for it with legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/31 "2005-01-22T16:20:40Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Thanks for the replies, most of you. > > I would like to note that I personally believe that communism is impossible on a large economic system for the reasons noted and others, but well suited to smaller systems (say, within a small community or company). By studying what works and what doesn’t work, we are able to look more objectively at other systems. Except that even then you don’t really have a good example of communism. Those small communities and companies still depend on capitalism when it comes to trading with the outside world. Even then, those small communities and companies can be threatened when members decide to leave or outside economic conditions change. The Amish, though hardly communist, are having a hard time maintaining their lifestyle in some areas of the country because of prevailing economic changes. You ask what can be done to improve communism, but I ask this, what is there in communism to improve? Polish a turd all you want and you’ll still have a turd. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/32 "2005-01-22T16:40:43Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Except that even then you don’t really have a good example of communism. Those small communities and companies still depend on capitalism when it comes to trading with the outside world. Even then, those small communities and companies can be threatened when members decide to leave or outside economic conditions change. The Amish, though hardly communist, are having a hard time maintaining their lifestyle in some areas of the country because of prevailing economic changes. > > You ask what can be done to improve communism, but I ask this, what is there in communism to improve? Polish a turd all you want and you’ll still have a turd. Economic systems don’t invent themselves. What is there to improve in communism? Maybe by tinkering with some of the aspects of it - including a free market system, etc - we can take the best from each system and improve on one. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/33 "2005-01-22T17:07:50Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Economic systems don’t invent themselves. What is there to improve in communism? Maybe by tinkering with some of the aspects of it - including a free market system, etc - we can take the best from each system and improve on one. Well, heck, let’s compare: [ul][li]The most left-leaning capitalist nation (i.e. the one with the biggest social safety net) is arguably one of the Scandinavian countries, possibly Norway.[/li][li]The most right-leaning communist nation (i.e. the one with the greatest tolerance for private property and entrepreneurship), arguably China.[/ul][/li] If Norwegian citizens feel their government has gone too far to the left, they can change their leaders through an open vote. If the Chinese government feels its citizens have gone too far to the right, they respond with crackdowns, prisons and tanks. There can be little doubt which system offers the better range of flexibility and the lessor chance of repression. Frankly, I don’t see where you’ve satisfactorily addressed _any_ of the questions raised in thie thread. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/34 "2005-01-22T17:15:47Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Frankly, I don’t see where you’ve satisfactorily addressed _any_ of the questions raised in thie thread. It was never my intention to satisfactorily address any of the questions raised. It was my intention to get the questions raised and open a dialogue about them. I don’t debate to be right about something, I debate to learn. If I make statements that don’t hold water, then via debate responses I can get a better understanding of how the systems do work and what needs to be addressed. I’m still digesting this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/35 "2005-01-22T17:29:30Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > I don’t debate to be right about something, I debate to learn. If I make statements that don’t hold water, then via debate responses I can get a better understanding of how the systems do work and what needs to be addressed. I’m still digesting this thread. Well, okey-dokey, though past experience suggests that when someone starts a thread with a premise and invites others to argue them out of it (i.e. “tear that apart. I want to see the holes in it.”), they in fact have no intention of allowing themselves to be moved and the bigger the mountain of counter-argument, the more firmly they hold their ground as the logic of the premise becomes secondary to the moral imperative of defending it as a symbol of individual opinion against the tide of the unfeeling masses, ironic (and unnecessarily lengthy) as this observation may be in a discussion about communism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/36 "2005-01-22T17:40:53Z")
If we’re talking about small-c “communism” as distinct from state-managed social democracy, then here’s an interesting quote on the “Spanish Revolution” (which happened during the Spanish Civil War but was a separate social phenomenon) – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish\_Revolution:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution:) > [@](#): > > The Spanish Revolution of 1936 began during the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War, much of Spain’s economy was put under worker control; in anarchist strongholds like Catalonia, the figure was as high as 75%, but lower in areas with heavy Socialist influence. Factories were run through worker committees, agrarian areas became collectivized and run as libertarian communes. Even places like hotels, barber shops, and restaurants were collectivized and managed by their workers. George Orwell describes a scene in Aragon during this time period in his book Homage to Catalonia: > > “I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life–snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.–had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master.” > > The communes were run according to the basic principle of “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,” but without any Marxist connotations attached. \*\*In some places, money was entirely eliminated, to be replaced with vouchers. Under this system, goods were often little more than a quarter of their previous cost. > > Despite the critics clamoring for maximum efficiency, anarchic communes often produced more than before the collectivization.\*\* The newly liberated zones worked on entirely libertarian principles; decisions were made through councils of ordinary citizens without any sort of bureaucracy (it should be noted that the CNT-FAI leadership was at this time not nearly as radical as the rank and file members responsible for these sweeping changes). That experiment in anarchist “communism,” if you can call it that, did not last: > [@](#): > > As the war dragged on, the spirit of the revolution’s early days flagged. In part, this was due to the policies of the Communist Party of Spain, which took its cues from the foreign ministry of Stalin’s Soviet Union, the source of most of the foreign aid received by the Republican side. The Commuist policy was that the war was not the time for the revolution, that until victory in the war was won the goal had to be the defeat of the Franco forces, not the abolition of capitalism, which was to be addressed once the war had been won. The other left-wing parties, particularly the anarchists and the Trotskyites, disagreed vehemently with this; to them the war and the revolution were one and the same. Militias of parties and groups which had spoken out too vociferously in opposition to the Soviet position on the war soon found further aid to have been cut off. Partially because of this, the situation in most Republican-held areas slowly began to revert largely to its prewar conditions; in many ways the “revolution” was over well before the triumph of the Franco forces in early 1939. So whether it would have been sustainable in the long run is speculative. But this example does illustrate that it is just possible that a decentralized, worker-controlled “communism” might not only work, but might be superior to capitalism in some measures of economic performance. Of course, the prospect of earning vast economic rewards within a free-market system does stimulate **innovation** in a way these communist economic conditions might not. No workers’ committee would ever have come up with a Sony Walkman or a Pet Rock. (Whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/37 "2005-01-22T17:43:02Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Well, I’m only familiar with two other systems: Capitalism and Socialism. > > Like communism, socialism works best with a smaller group, or a single-industry based society, where government control can be managed. And there’s the crust on the biscuit. Government control cannot be managed to the individual level. What’s great for the common good may be a crap sandwich for the individual. “But I wanted to be a doctor, lawyer (insert dream jobs here).” “Not possible, we need sewer cleaners today, that is what you’ll be” ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/38 "2005-01-22T18:20:22Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > One more for the “it doesn’t work at a basic level”. Humans are the weak link. Indeed. I have little more to add myself. These utopian models are real-world non-starters that require fundamentally non-human and universally voluntary behavior for success. No one could get all of 1000 people to adhere sufficiently well to such a system to make it workable, much less a country. And as long as the rest of the planet doesn’t play along, that country gets preyed upon from the outside. It’s a pipe-dream. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/39 "2005-01-22T18:27:59Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > These utopian models are real-world non-starters that require fundamentally non-human and universally voluntary behavior for success. Worked in Spain, didn’t it? (See above.) ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830/40 "2005-01-22T18:54:23Z")
There’s another thread on the subject, but you’re going to have to provide us something more authoritative than some anecdotes from a wikipedia article. That article could have been written by one of the libertopian fruitbats on this very board for all we know. At any rate, your talking about a rather small-scale, and very brief development. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-be-done-to-improve-communism/285830.md?page=3)