# What can replace the Confederate Flag as a symbol of Southern Pride? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 24, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385 "2015-06-24T19:35:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/81 "2015-06-25T15:52:05Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Wouldn’t fly. (Sorry) > > BBQ was invented and perfected by black people. No way the South would pick a symbol that didn’t let white peckerwoods feel “superior” to everybody else. More of this ridiculous buried racism. Black people _are_ the South, just as much as white people are. “The South” isn’t going to vote on a symbol. There’s no majority rules thing going on. Barbecue, like jazz and blues, might have originated among southern African Americans, and that means they originated among Southerners. Knock it off with acting like there’s Southerners and then black Southerners. White isn’t the default. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/82 "2015-06-25T16:00:04Z")
There are different geographical features to admire in different parts of the South. There are different food traditions to admire on different parts of the south. There are different artists and works to admire that have some connection to different parts of the south. But none of these things are intrinsically “Southern” in their scope. Faulkner’s works come from his experiences in Northern Mississippi. They have nothing to do with Key West of New Orleans or San Antonio. The only thing that ties together this region as “southern” is its history of slavery, the armed revolt in support of slavery, and the subsequent race-based legal and social structures enforced. So the only thing that a symbol of the South as a whole can really represent is slavery, racism, discrimination, treason, and violence. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/83 "2015-06-25T16:03:47Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > I stand corrected. I’ve been to New England many, many times in my life, but never knew there was a regional flag. Thanks for the enlightenment. 🙂 > [@Telemark](#): > > I’ve lived in New England my entire life, and have never noticed that flag either. It doesn’t really mean much as a flag if nobody gives a shit about it. Seriously, what the hell is the New England flag? Can anyone say without clicking the link? No? All right then. Anyway, that Southerners seem to be so proud of their history baffles me. For some odd reason, there’s only one group in particular that seems to be proud of it. Odd. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/84 "2015-06-25T16:05:09Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I’m no historian, but the Mason-Dixon Line goes back to 1804, so it was a defined region based on legality of slavery by then if not before. The Mason-Dixon line had nothing to do with slavery. It was established in 1767, before the United States (let alone the Confederacy) existed, to settle a border dispute between Maryland and Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/85 "2015-06-25T16:08:34Z")
I wonder why the 34 or 35 star American flag, as carried by the Union army, representing all the states in one whole country, has not become an answer to the Conf. flag? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/86 "2015-06-25T17:10:34Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > A guy playing a banjo in the back of a pick up truck jumping a Col Sanders? A young Vivian Leigh wearing Daisy Dukes. Combining popular modern ideas about the antebellum South with good ol’ boy rebel attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/87 "2015-06-25T17:15:40Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The Mason-Dixon line had nothing to do with slavery. It was established in 1767, before the United States (let alone the Confederacy) existed, to settle a border dispute between Maryland and Pennsylvania. Yes, that’s true, but in 1804 the last state north of it abolished slavery, so it served as a demarcation line of sorts from that point on. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/88 "2015-06-25T17:18:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Notice, **again** , that in describing folks in the South, you completely leave out describing nonwhite people. Indeed, the only agency you give nonwhite people is to suggest that they can be racist, too–otherwise you ignore them entirely. Check yourself, Anamen. > > This is, incidentally, a pretty common symptom of racism among white liberals outside the South. They want to polish their bona fides by criticizing Southerners for racism, not realizing as they do so that their own racial bias prevents them from thinking about the black people in the South. > > It’s not a symptom unique to Northerners, though. I remember visiting a history museum in Charleston some years back and reading a plaque talking about how terrified Charlestonians were at the approach of the Union Navy, and I was like, uh, SOME Charlestonians were thrilled as hell to see those ships. Those ships represented freedom to some Charlestonians. The historian who wrote those plaques suffered from the same racial bias that your posts continue to show. What should I be checking for and why are you assuming I’m white? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/89 "2015-06-25T17:23:14Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Yes, that’s true, but in 1804 the last state north of it abolished slavery, so it served as a demarcation line of sorts from that point on. Delaware is on the “north” side of the line. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/90 "2015-06-25T17:33:35Z")
East of it, really. The line started at the western border of Delaware. Even projecting the line, most of Delaware (slave state) is south of it, and most of New Jersey (free state) is north. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/91 "2015-06-25T17:43:53Z")
What can replace the Confederate Flag as a symbol of Southern Pride? How about the current flag of the United States of America–the one with 50 stars, and not only 39? As an entity, what do the states comprising The South have to proud of? The only thing they have in common that makes them unique to themselves is a treasonous event centered around the desire to enslave human beings. Individually, the states all have their charms (except Mississippi) worthy of celebration. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/92 "2015-06-25T17:50:54Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Delaware is on the “north” side of the line. Only because it takes that jog south. I lived in Delaware as a child. Frankly, I think the whole Delmarva Peninsula should be ceded to Delaware. But I’ll admit I’m partial to natural boundaries over lines drawn on a map for state borders. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/93 "2015-06-25T19:22:07Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > What should I be checking for and why are you assuming I’m white? Fair enough. It’s a common symptom among non-black liberals outside the South. If you’re black and still suffer from this huge blind spot, you’re uncommon in this regard. You should check yourself for your implicitly racist assumptions about the race of southerners who embody the region, of course–I’ve made that abundantly clear, just as you’ve made abundantly clear that you don’t think of active black people when you think of the SOuth. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/94 "2015-06-25T19:24:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Fair enough. It’s a common symptom among non-black liberals outside the South. If you’re black and still suffer from this huge blind spot, you’re uncommon in this regard. You should check yourself for your assumptions about the race of southerners who embody the region, of course–I’ve made that abundantly clear, just as you’ve made abundantly clear that you don’t think of active black people when you think of the SOuth. I don’t typically see black Southerners flying the Confederate flag or hear them bragging about their “Southern pride.” I’m sure there are exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/95 "2015-06-25T19:48:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I could go along with [Jon Stewart](http://theweek.com/speedreads/562677/jon-stewart-provocative-slightly-condescending-idea-confederate-flag-nostalgists): BBQ is too divisive. I always make East Carolina BBQ, slow smoked pork shoulder with vinegar and cayenne pepper sauce. Those Philistines in Tennessee use that tomato based sauce, there’s some folks down in South Carolina with a mustard based sauce, and we haven’t even discussed the whole brisket schism. Larry Wilmore suggested peach cobbler. I think we can all get behind peach cobbler. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/96 "2015-06-25T19:51:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How about the American flag? Is there any reason you can’t be proud of that? I was before **GusNSpot** stomped on it. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/97 "2015-06-25T19:58:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I can’t offhand think of a single notable sport invented in the South. > > Props for Mark Twain, Dr. King, and pulled pork, but what sports did the South give us? Stock car racing. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/98 "2015-06-25T20:26:42Z")
[Lawn jockeys](https://www.google.com/search?q=lawn+jockeys&lr=&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=aGOMVZyhA9LpoASWq44I&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1280&bih=750)? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/99 "2015-06-25T20:46:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Fair enough. It’s a common symptom among non-black liberals outside the South. If you’re black and still suffer from this huge blind spot, you’re uncommon in this regard. You should check yourself for your implicitly racist assumptions about the race of southerners who embody the region, of course–I’ve made that abundantly clear, just as you’ve made abundantly clear that you don’t think of active black people when you think of the SOuth. Don’t tell her there are Mexican-Americans here, too. Well, people from all over Latin-America–plenty of Cuban-Americans in Florida, for example. As well as people with Asian roots–who aren’t exactly white. I live in the country’s most diverse city, so I know this stuff. What about all the [Gujaratis who own motels](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/motel-ownership-offers-indian-americans-gateway-american-dream-180949873/?no-ist)? I’ve looked at the Battle Flag with contempt for most of my life. Beyond that traitorous rag, I don’t think Southerners need worry about the opinions of uptight folks who are so ashamed of their locality that they don’t mention it in their profile. In fact, there’s been a bit of humor in many of the positive suggestions here–which many people miss. Bless their hearts. As Ray Wiley Hubbard says, “[the only problem with irony is that not everybody gets it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cFtSPIF4Q).” ([More Southern Culture here](http://www.southernspaces.org/2008/dirty-decade-rap-music-and-us-south-1997%E2%80%932007).) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/100 "2015-06-25T20:51:59Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Don’t be so smug. The Southern Poverty Law Center prepared this[map of hate groups](http://www.splcenter.org/hate-map), nationwide. Even outside the South, quite a few consider themselves affiliated with the KKK. > > The Battle Flag disgusts me & I’m glad my state refused to put it on license places–Clarence Thomas agreed. But this generalized bashing of everybody in the South is rather shortsighted. When somebody says “from what I can see”–I recommend a visit to the optometrist. Who’s being smug? What bashing? Isn’t that how The South is defined? It’s the states of the old confederacy. What other unique cultural characteristics are shared by all of the states in The South? I said nothing about the KKK, nor did I say that hate groups were unique or even more common in The South. I live in Pennsylvania and we certainly have our share of them. I was simply pointing out that “The South” is an arbitrary grouping of states that is largely or solely based on an old rebellion. You’re reading things into that that I did not intend to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385.md?page=6)