# What can replace the Confederate Flag as a symbol of Southern Pride? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 24, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385 "2015-06-24T19:35:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/101 "2015-06-25T20:54:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … > Edit: if the South is defined by the rebellion, does that imply that there was no regional awareness prior to 1860? That’s a good point. I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/102 "2015-06-25T21:30:03Z")
[Just make this a flag.](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/03/article-1372903-0B71C0E300000578-980_306x423.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/103 "2015-06-25T21:36:09Z")
Heh… “Elvis is a flag!” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/104 "2015-06-25T21:37:58Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I don’t typically see black Southerners flying the Confederate flag or hear them bragging about their “Southern pride.” I’m sure there are exceptions. So what? Any discussion of Southern Pride, positive or negative, that leaves out black Southerners is a racially biased discussion. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/105 "2015-06-25T21:46:42Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Who’s being smug? What bashing? Isn’t that how The South is defined? It’s the states of the old confederacy. No Southerner would consider Texas to be part of “The South”. Nor Florida south of Tampa. So not really. The South really doesn’t really claim Arkansas that much either. Interestingly enough the CSA also claimed (and had control over) “Indian Territory” (modern day Oklahoma) and the southern parts of “Arizona Territory” (current day southern halves of New Mexico and Arizona). And there is always the thorny question of whether Kentucky, or any part of it, is The South. It was claimed by the CSA, but the CSA never had any control over it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/106 "2015-06-25T21:53:45Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > No Southerner would consider Texas to be part of “The South”. Nor Florida south of Tampa. So not really. The South really doesn’t really claim Arkansas that much either. > > Interestingly enough the CSA also claimed (and had control over) “Indian Territory” (modern day Oklahoma) and the southern parts of “Arizona Territory” (current day southern halves of New Mexico and Arizona). > > And there is always the thorny question of whether Kentucky, or any part of it, is The South. It was claimed by the CSA, but the CSA never had any control over it. You’ve got to be totally kidding about Arkansas, and mostly kidding about Texas, at least from this Southerner’s experience (from Louisiana, lived in Arkansas for a few years, and have spent a lot of time visiting Texas with a lot of Texan friends). ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/107 "2015-06-25T21:54:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So what? Any discussion of Southern Pride, positive or negative, that leaves out black Southerners is a racially biased discussion. Probably everything is a racially biased discussion to you. I’m not “characterizing” the varied residents of Southern states. We’re talking about “Southern pride” and a substitute for the Confederate flag, so it is logical to talk about exactly what is meant be “Southern pride” by the people who actually say it, NOT what it means to be a Southerner or a demographic breakdown by race and ethnicity of the populace. Sorry, but some Southerners are racists and proud of it. If you have spent any time in the South, you know that this is not a secret or even remotely debatable. That does not discount the existence or opinions of non-white Southerners. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/108 "2015-06-25T21:59:26Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Sorry, but some Southerners are racists and proud of it. If you have spent any time in the South, you know that this is not a secret or even remotely debatable. Of course I’m not disagreeing with that. > [@](#): > > That does not discount the existence or opinions of non-white Southerners. It doesn’t. Your posts do. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/109 "2015-06-25T22:01:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve got to be totally kidding about Arkansas, and mostly kidding about Texas, at least from this Southerner’s experience (from Louisiana, lived in Arkansas for a few years, and have spent a lot of time visiting Texas with a lot of Texan friends). Both Southerners and Texans have been fighting a battle to separate Texas from the rest of the South. And most of the Georgians or other Deep South folks I know don’t really consider Arkansas to be The South. They look askance on Louisiana as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/110 "2015-06-25T22:01:29Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Sorry, but some Southerners are racists and proud of it. If you have spent any time in the South, you know that this is not a secret or even remotely debatable. That does not discount the existence or opinions of non-white Southerners. From my perspective, you can replace the word “Southerners” with “people” and be just as accurate. And I’m not convinced that these people are confined to a single geographic region. Just out of curiosity, how much time have you spent in the South? There are a lot of characterizations and generalizations in this thread that seem … incongruous, let’s say, on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/111 "2015-06-25T22:18:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > East of it, really. The line started at the western border of Delaware. No. The Line turns a corner, and _forms_ Delaware’s western border with Maryland. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/112 "2015-06-25T22:22:37Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/113 "2015-06-25T22:47:42Z")
> [@GrizzRich](#): > > Truly, this is a serious question that I have. Display and sales of the confederate flag are touchy these days. Some folks view it as a symbol of southern pride and history while others view it as a symbol of racism and oppression. If you want that Flag forever associated with that whackjob in South Carolina , then yeah case the colors. Otherwise fly it or don’t as your want to do. The kind of people that hated the flag, hated it before, and they will hate it after. Its perfectly fine as a symbol of America, regardless of the region you grew up in. They did not get it then, and they won’t get it now or in the future. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/114 "2015-06-25T23:14:40Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Its perfectly fine as a symbol of America, regardless of the region you grew up in. Just to be clear, you’re talking about the Confederate battle flag here, right, as a symbol of America? If so, that’s got to be one of the most cynical, borderline nihilistic anti-America statements I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/115 "2015-06-25T23:34:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Just to be clear, you’re talking about the Confederate battle flag here, right, as a symbol of America? If so, that’s got to be one of the most cynical, borderline nihilistic anti-America statements I’ve ever read. Depends on how old you are, I can’t see anyone over the age of thirty believing in the mystique of the flag, but I never really seen any difference between some good old boys driving around with the flag in the back of the pick up truck and some proto hipster wearing a che guerva tee shirt. Its a non confomity thing. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/116 "2015-06-25T23:37:04Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Depends on how old you are, I can’t see anyone over the age of thirty believing in the mystique of the flag, but I never really seen any difference between some good old boys driving around with the flag in the back of the pick up truck and some proto hipster wearing a che guerva tee shirt. Its a non confomity thing. > > Declan Fair enough. I don’t really see any difference between some good old boys driving around with the flag in the back of the pick up truck and some good old boys wearing Klan hoods. Which is a much better comparison, because at least Che, for all his many many faults, was trying to do good and fight a much eviller government; he was more like the Union of his day. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/117 "2015-06-25T23:42:48Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > From my perspective, you can replace the word “Southerners” with “people” and be just as accurate. And I’m not convinced that these people are confined to a single geographic region. > > Just out of curiosity, how much time have you spent in the South? There are a lot of characterizations and generalizations in this thread that seem … incongruous, let’s say, on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance. Yes, there is racism all over, obviously. I spend approximately two weeks per year in the South. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/118 "2015-06-26T00:07:12Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Probably everything is a racially biased discussion to you. This, by the way, is pretty awesome. You’re a poster who engages in massive sweeping generalizations about Southerners, and you imply that I’m the one who thinks too many things are racially biased. The irony is scrumptious. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/119 "2015-06-26T00:33:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Fair enough. I don’t really see any difference between some good old boys driving around with the flag in the back of the pick up truck and some good old boys wearing Klan hoods. Which is a much better comparison, because at least Che, for all his many many faults, was trying to do good and fight a much eviller government; he was more like the Union of his day. Well, thats an interesting view of Che. The most I will give him, is that he was a man of his times. Declan ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385/120 "2015-06-26T00:36:02Z")
Like everyone else, I would say “the South” probably just doesn’t get to have a flag. That doesn’t mean the South doesn’t get to have a regional identity, the same as the Midwest, the West, New England, the Pacific Northwest, and so forth, but those other regions don’t have flags (or don’t have [flags anyone has](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_New_England) [ever heard of](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_flag)). If I absolutely had to come up with a new “Southern Flag” that doesn’t support slavery and segregation, apart from making all the same grits and Elvis jokes as the rest of y’all, the best I can come up with is something sort of medieval and kind of eye-watering that would only be recognizable to a complete flag nerd: Take a “four quarter” flag (like the [Royal Standard of the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Standard_of_the_United_Kingdom)). For the first quarter, use [the “Union”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Naval_Jack.svg) of the American flag (the blue part with the stars), because Southerners _are_ Americans, after all. For the second quarter, the [flag of England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_England) (Southerners speak English, and the region started out as a collection of English colonies). For the third quarter, the [flag of Ulster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ulster), for the [Scots-Irish Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots-Irish_Americans). For the fourth quarter, the [Pan-African flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-African_flag), because **Left Hand of Dorkness** is right–we shouldn’t define “Southerners” to mean only “white Southerners”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-replace-the-confederate-flag-as-a-symbol-of-southern-pride/723385.md?page=7)