# What can truly be done about "Trump supporters" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328 "2016-10-12T13:43:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/62 "2016-10-13T22:37:19Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > They are not “conservative”, in any useful sense of that word. They are not motivated much by religious or moral ideals, unlike evangelicals. They are not particularly motivated by traditionally conservative fiscal ideas either; although they hate paying taxes it appears that is simply part of their general hatred of government. Which seems to me to be more about “foreign elites” telling them what to do. To them, the world outside of their cohort is foreign, not understandable, and their enemy. > > They are extremely reminiscent of David Fischer’s Borderers – glorifying violence and defiance, suspicious of ‘outsiders’, extreme gender roles, tribal, disliked and despised by all the other American cultures, culturally incapable of making into the middle class by any means other than blue collar or agricultural work . I’m glad you mentioned David Fischer considering he’s my professor at Brandeis and I’m taking an extremely interesting course on the Second World War with him as of this moment. That said, your description has been used on a lot of cultures besides those of Scotch-Irish/Borderer whites such as urban blacks or the large Muslim underclass residing in Europe’s banlieus. Yet were you to apply those stereotypes to them, it would be considered bigoted, classist, and essentialist. I’m generally more open to cultural explanations then others on the Left, but its clear other factors including socioeconomics play a large role too and you seem to ignore all that in favour of a simplistic, monocausal explanation based on cultural pathology. > [@](#): > > My question is, what can possibly be done with such an intractable, impenetrably destructive and self-destructive group of people? Obviously, a very large group now. > > Seriously, I have no clue. Those factory and mining jobs aren’t coming back, much less those sharecropper and plantation overseer jobs. We do not have another Australia so that’s out. The postindustrial new economy will be a big dichotomy between highly paying professional positions and low-wage service jobs. The trick is to unionize the jobs in the latter category and (probably through State mechanism) provide them with the sort of benefits and security afforded by midcentury factory jobs. A form of cultural renewal is needed to reduce social atomization, encourage family formation, instill community/national pride, and so forth but that’s more difficult through the mechanism of the State. > [@](#): > > I don’t mean to create another let’s-bash-the-troglodytes thread. I am hoping for positive suggestions. “I don’t mean to create another let’s-bash-the-ghetto thugs thread. I am hoping for positive suggestions.” > [@Kobal2](#): > > As a Frenchman, a suggestion immediately springs to mind. But y’all already got a War on Drugs and one on Poverty ; I fear the impact of a good ol’ Terror would be lost in the rhetoric. > Still, I mean, we have a few good guillotines left in storage, don’t be afraid to ask. You’ll have to provide your own pikes however. If there was a new Terror or Great Purge in America, it will be directed against the upper middle-class suburbanites of the Wall Street-Washington-Silicon Valley-Hollywood axis whose selfishness and hedonism have destroyed the Republic’s implicit social contract. The sons of Appalachia and Detroit will march side by side in this holy endeavour and will have no need of fancy French geegaws like the guillotine, instead taking advantage of their God-given Second Amendment rights. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > And then, the original question, what can a civilized society fairly do with such people? > > In some ways, I guess it’s the same question as how does a civilized society deal with addicts, those who won’t work even if given a job, and the other non-contributing adults. These trumppersons really do despise science and education. You can’t fight willful ignorance, can you? > > > [@](#): > > > > Sorry I’m so vague, and so clearly arrogant and out of touch. But the truth is, as a leftist who grew up and stayed in a milieu of intelligentsia and white collar professionals, I feel at a great loss. I doubt I’m the only one. > > Your cultural essentialism isn’t very “leftist” but as noted above more reminiscent of moralist conservative commentary of a William J. Bennett on urban black communities. But I suggest you (as the saying goes these days) “check your privilege”. > > It’s ironic perhaps, but when Fischer describes the Borderers’ history in the US, it is one of being shoved bodily into the frontier, and wherever they washed up, they always ended up being the lowest white class. From the minute they arrived, none of the existing cultures could bear them. Even the welcoming and tolerant Quakers couldn’t wait to see the last of them. So no one had an answer then either. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/63 "2016-10-13T23:00:23Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Nobody is born racist, or nativist, or misogynist. Those are learned behaviors and viewpoints. That’s an optimistic view of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/64 "2016-10-14T01:08:58Z")
> [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > (For those interested, a TL;DR of Stenner’s work, written by Stenner herself, can be found at [http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/publications/1006\_Inequality\_Stenner.pdf](http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/publications/1006_Inequality_Stenner.pdf) ) An awesome link. I did a little not so light reading to get through it before bed last night. Just the breakdown of the three strains of conservatism fights a lot of ignorance that comes up in threads about politics. Of interest to me directly related to this OP from the reading: - Some of the suggestions to “fix” the issue (like education and changes that affect family income) are actually addressing issues only weakly correlated to intolerance compared to the authoritarian tendency. - The intolerance = authoritarianism x threat notion that Stenner presents based on her research. If we want to fight the intolerance that rises and recedes it’s useful to understand what triggers the latent authoritarian impulse to produce intolerance. > [@](#): > > The perceived loss of those conditions—via disaffection with leaders, or divided public opinion—is the catalyst that activates these latent predispositions > and provokes their increased manifestation in racial, political, and moral intolerance (and its corollary: punitiveness). This is the authoritarian’s classic “defensive arsenal,” That certainly raises the prospect that some methods in our hyper-partisan environment, focused on direct confrontation, might actually increase intolerance as it highlights divided opinion. - The authoritarian impulse to focus on the social collective, while generally harmful, can, in certain situations, be harnessed to the benefit of society. That certainly presents an area to think about if we want to reduce the negative effects. Stenner’s book just made my reading list. Your link is a prime example of why I come here. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/65 "2016-10-14T09:21:22Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > That’s an optimistic view of human nature. Fear and hatred of the “other” is part of the package. Definition of who the “other” is is often taught. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/66 "2016-10-14T13:31:35Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > That’s an optimistic view of human nature. Yip. The exact opposite of the truth. We are born tribal, liking the people like us. We aren’t talking about people with legitimate complaints here. They exist, but they aren’t part of the alt-right, which is who the Op seems to define. They are mostly reluctant Trump supporters, which is a different group. The problem is that compromise isn’t a possibility with the alt-right. You can’t be partially racist. And there’s nothing to compromise with their provocation. The only solution is Andy’s. We keep on driving the anti-racist message. We keep making appealing to them to be political suicide. And they go back to being irrelevant. We don’t have Nixon winning while using the Southern Strategy. We have Trump lose a lot of Republican support. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/67 "2016-10-14T14:45:30Z")
Give their kids a free college education. See how their kids’ - and their own - politics change by the time they graduate. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/68 "2016-10-14T15:03:20Z")
Trump supporters need their voices heard. Their proposals/policies don’t necessarily need to be enacted, but they should be made to feel that they have a voice. Many people are willing to compromise or even let go of their demands, as long as they feel that they were truly heard. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/69 "2016-10-14T15:22:25Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Give their kids a free college education. See how their kids’ - and their own - politics change by the time they graduate. This. The solution is to brainwash them by the liberal academics. Maybe someday we can even get Safe Spaces into the work place. Has your boss complained to you that you’ve been leaving work early too often or not completing your reports on time? Report them and get them fired for oppression and go to the Safe Space at work and cry and pet puppies. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/70 "2016-10-14T17:55:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Trump supporters need their voices heard. Their proposals/policies don’t necessarily need to be enacted, but they should be made to feel that they have a voice. > Many people are willing to compromise or even let go of their demands, as long as they feel that they were truly heard. Their voice has been heard. And it is being amplified and regurgitated back to them 24 hours a day via Fox News. The Cracked article you linked to provided an interesting perspective. The thing is, you want to feel bad for these people, however there definitely is a strong resistance to any sort of change. I guess my main question is what does a “victory” look like to Trump supporters living in rural areas? ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/71 "2016-10-15T06:58:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Trump supporters need their voices heard. Their proposals/policies don’t necessarily need to be enacted, but they should be made to feel that they have a voice. But that’s exactly what they’re pissed off about! “Those idiots in Congress never do what we sent them there to do!” This REINFORCES their anger. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/72 "2016-10-15T10:39:22Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > That sounds good. I hope it’s true. But ultimately didn’t legislation have to be passed to achieve the civil rights act? Were tact and diplomacy what achieved success? To some degree, maybe. But making that sort of discourse less acceptable in public helped. Diplomacy is good, to a degree, but not when it means giving way and not fighting for basic rights (marriage, etc.) for people. I’m just saying this sounds awful close to “not tolerating their intolerance is intolerant.” Yeah. Being polite and tactful to people who espouse faith-based hatred is how we got to this mess. We’ve spent the last twenty years hearing how we have to be nice and calm and whatever the opposite of “shrill” is or the conservatives will just dismiss our message. We’ve been told that we can’t challenge them, because that wouldn’t be fair or balanced. We’ve been told that if we disagree with them, the conservatives will just pout and sulk, like somehow that’s _our_ fault. It’s all bullshit. It’s just an attempt to silence and intimidate their opposition. Bottom line - you can’t reason people out of a position that they didn’t reason themselves into. It’s 2016. If conservatives don’t know how to get to Sesame Street by now, they have only themselves to blame. > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > **shiftless** has a point. > Concessions, & an effort to bridge the gaps must be made. But they can’t be made _unilaterally_. Go find me some “Trump supporters”, like the op is talking about, who are making an effort to bridge the gap and then we can talk about what sort of concessions that need to be made and by whom. Y’all can do emotional outreach on the bigots if you want. I’m going to be having cocktails over at iiandyiiii’s table. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/73 "2016-10-15T11:02:57Z")
For Trump supporters I’ve spoken with talking about “concessions” is to miss the entire point; they don’t want more of the same but watered down - they want out, a whole new social contract as between the people and the political class (who they see as corrupt through bribery). Liberals can be dismissive and negatively characterise Trump supporters from their bullshit high ground but, as best I can see, there is only one group of voters in this election willing to tackle the issues surrounding the 1%. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/74 "2016-10-15T11:04:37Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > For Trump supporters I’ve spoken with talking about “concessions” is to miss the entire point; they don’t want more of the same but watered down - they want out, a whole new social contract as between the people and the political class (who they see as corrupt through bribery). > > Liberals can be dismissive and negatively characterise Trump supporters from their bullshit high ground but, as best I can see, there is only one group of voters in this election willing to tackle the issues surrounding the 1%. Yeah, but Bernie supporters have mostly made peace with voting for Hillary. What that’s got to do with the idiots who get excited when Trump yells, “I’m building a wall!”, and “Lock her up!” - I don’t really know. You realize, right, that Trump only solid economic plan is tax cuts for millionaires, right? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/75 "2016-10-15T11:06:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I guess my main question is what does a “victory” look like to Trump supporters living in rural areas? Profound political change is a process. Trump is symptom as much as a building block - as is Sanders. Trump is meaningless as an individual but what he represents has already won - no one can think the GOP will ever be the same after this debacle. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/76 "2016-10-15T11:10:22Z")
Coincidentally - Salon just put up an article saying that Trump supporters don’t want concessions: [\*\*Donald Trump’s “no concession” stand: He and his hate-filled followers will not accept a Clinton victory and that’s when things get truly chilling \*\*](http://www.salon.com/2016/10/15/donald-trumps-no-concession-stand-he-and-his-hate-filled-followers-will-not-accept-a-clinton-victory-and-thats-when-things-get-truly-chilling/) The article is about the armed Trump supporters and the talk of revolution. Again - Trump supporters are dangerous and irrational. The onus here is not on Liberals to reach out to them and lead them gently to the path of decency and kindness. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/77 "2016-10-15T11:10:55Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Yeah, but Bernie supporters have mostly made peace with voting for Hillary. What that’s got to do with the idiots who get excited when Trump yells, “I’m building a wall!”, and “Lock her up!” - I don’t really know. > > You realize, right, that Trump only solid economic plan is tax cuts for millionaires, right? You’re missing the point - you’re too busy listening to the noise because you’re keen dismiss. It’s easy, right; pick an individual, personalise it and determine that person is an idiot. Then extrapolate: they’re all idiots. This is the thing: like Sanders, Trump is not tainted by association - or active engagement - with the established political class. At this point, that qualifies him - these people are utterly desperate to be represented. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/78 "2016-10-15T11:15:03Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Again - Trump supporters are dangerous and irrational. The onus here is not on Liberals to reach out to them and lead them gently to the path of decency and kindness. And they world argue you are and imo - in a nutshell - this is why: > [@](#): > > None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free Goethe. That’s the hand-wringing, Clinton-supporting, high ground hugging delusionalists. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/79 "2016-10-15T11:21:16Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > This isn’t about the elections. I used ‘Trump supporters’ as a shorthand for the white, male-dominated, anti-education, anti-elite, nativist, anti-science, angry, racist, misogynist heart of what I consider to one of the most intractable problems with the United States. And not only the US, apparently. > > They are not “conservative”, in any useful sense of that word. They are not motivated much by religious or moral ideals, unlike evangelicals. They are not particularly motivated by traditionally conservative fiscal ideas either; although they hate paying taxes it appears that is simply part of their general hatred of government. Which seems to me to be more about “foreign elites” telling them what to do. To them, the world outside of their cohort is foreign, not understandable, and their enemy. > > They are extremely reminiscent of David Fischer’s Borderers – glorifying violence and defiance, suspicious of ‘outsiders’, extreme gender roles, tribal, disliked and despised by all the other American cultures, culturally incapable of making into the middle class by any means other than blue collar or agricultural work. > > My question is, what can possibly be done with such an intractable, impenetrably destructive and self-destructive group of people? Obviously, a very large group now. > > Seriously, I have no clue. Those factory and mining jobs aren’t coming back, much less those sharecropper and plantation overseer jobs. We do not have another Australia so that’s out. > > I don’t mean to create another let’s-bash-the-troglodytes thread. I am hoping for positive suggestions. America needs to be less individualistic and more collectivist. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/80 "2016-10-15T11:25:37Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Coincidentally - Salon just put up an article saying that Trump supporters don’t want concessions: > > [\*\*Donald Trump’s “no concession” stand: He and his hate-filled followers will not accept a Clinton victory and that’s when things get truly chilling \*\*](http://www.salon.com/2016/10/15/donald-trumps-no-concession-stand-he-and-his-hate-filled-followers-will-not-accept-a-clinton-victory-and-thats-when-things-get-truly-chilling/) > > The article is about the armed Trump supporters and the talk of revolution. > > Again - Trump supporters are dangerous and irrational. The onus here is not on Liberals to reach out to them and lead them gently to the path of decency and kindness. What disgusts me is that you have less irrational republicans that have decided that they are not committing themselves to fight them. The strongest rebukes among those currently active republicans are things like “I might vote for Trump but I’ll just have to wait and see” – that’s about as strong as the rebukes get. What that really means is, if there’s a way for them to capitalize on Trump supporters’ blind rage, they’re still open to doing it, and probably will. It’s probably a combination of a desire for personal gain and genuine palpable fear of what Trump die-hards are capable of. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2016, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328/81 "2016-10-15T11:29:32Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > You’re missing the point - you’re too busy listening to the noise because you’re keen dismiss. > > It’s easy, right; pick an individual, personalise it and determine that person is an idiot. Then extrapolate: they’re all idiots. > > This is the thing: like Sanders, Trump is not tainted by association - or active engagement - with the established political class. > > At this point, that qualifies him - these people are utterly desperate to be represented. These people vote against the people who are more likely to represent their interests. I don’t really feel sorry for them. These are people who don’t want to exercise even a modicum of intellectual energy. I will concede that it doesn’t help that we live in a society where news media hardly educate and where primary and secondary schooling are a joke. But again, these people vote against their own interests a lot of times so the responsibility is on them. And at any rate, it doesn’t take wealth or education to be a decent person, which these people are not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-truly-be-done-about-trump-supporters/768328.md?page=5)