# What can we do about school bullies? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 11, 2001, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065 "2001-05-11T04:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2001, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065/41 "2001-05-13T23:59:50Z")
Monty, great posts. With one big exception. **The teachers don’t get treated any better by the school bureaucracy than the students do.** The most teachers should have to do is to stop bullying incidents they see and report them to someone else for further and decisive handling. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ignatzmouse \* > IMHO, we need to stop looking to the schools to solve every problem. I am always amazed that many who claim to be conservative, who and who decry government solutions to social problems, are so quick to attack schools for failing to solve all of societies problems. May I respectfully inquire which of society’s problems that we are currently trying to solve in the schools actually should **not** be handled there? If none, why shouldn’t bullying be handled there? After all, it occurs there. I’ve heard recent polls show that around 80 percent students say that bullying is their **biggest** concern in school. I think we’re headed for the Pit or GD. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065/42 "2001-05-14T02:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Home of the Braves \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > > Yes, malpractice. And I am not kidding. > > > > First: If you are not up to performing what you are obligated to, time to switch careers. > > ``` > And have you ever been in my shoes? If not, then don't tell me what to do. > > ``` Whether I personally have taught 7th grade or not is irrelevant. Your reading skills have improved, so I won’t post the definition here. I trust you can find it on your own. You see, the government mandates a certain amount of schooling and the schools are also mandated to be responsible for educating the students. I take it you’re not a medical doctor, but you more likely than not would expect a MD who is not up to performing his medical duties to switch careers. If you do not see the analogy here, it’s hopeless. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Second: Many times I hear teachers and school administrators say “we’re not babysitters.” Correct. But you are still entrusted with the care, for a few hours of the day, of every single minor in that school. You are responsible for taking care of those minors. Because you think the task is overwhelming does not justify your abdication of that obligation. > > ``` > That's true, we are entrusted with the care of the kids for those hours. > > ``` Glad to see you can still recognize a fact when it’s presented to you. > [@](#): > > However, I cannot teach my subject matter (an action which you call malpractice) It appears I was mistaken in my assessment of your reading skills. I did not call teaching your subject matter malpractice. I called the failure to perform certain tasks malpractice. > [@](#): > > if I am too busy teaching common courtesy and respect Let’s see: back in the 1970s, when I was in school, the teachers managed to supplement the teaching of courtesy and respect my parents taught me. And yet, oddly enough, the teachers still managed to teach the subject matter. > [@](#): > > – something that should be taught \* in the home\*. Regardless of where you think something should or should not be taught, you are still not justified in your abdiction of your legal responsibilities. {I use “your” in the sense of “one” and “one’s” here.} > [@](#): > > If the parents’ aren’t teaching these basic lessons at home, do _I_ have the right to sue them? NOOOOO… Damn straight you do not have the right to sue the parent for what goes on, or does not go on, inside the home. That is not your purview. If the child is being abused, on the other hand, you have recourse other than civil suits, as you are required by law in many, if not most, jurisdictions in the US to notify the appropriate legal and medical authorities of the suspected abuse. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Third: I couldn’t care less how many times your boss yells at you. If he or she is yelling, you have both administrative avenues and a union to which you can appeal for resolution. The child does not have a union. > > ``` > Several of my colleagues and myself > > ``` Teach: the foregoing should be “Several of my colleagues and I…” > [@](#): > > have complained to the union about him. Good. You are aware that you can follow-up on the report, are you not? > [@](#): > > Other than a “don’t do that again” conversation, nothing has been done. And you base this assertion on what? Surely, you’re not party to another teacher’s personnel file. > [@](#): > > According to you, kids don’t need unions, they can just sue when someone tells them NO. Please tell me that you don’t teach either Reading or Logic. I didn’t say the child could sue, I clearly indicated that for the situation described in the OP the PARENT should sue. Try not to confuse PARENT with CHILD. Nor did I say that it was because “someone tells [the child] ‘No.’” I clearly addressed the situation described in the OP. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _A note: It appears that it’s not okay for the boss to abuse the teacher but it is okay for the student to be abused on campus. A quite enlightened approach you have there._ > > ``` > Not only do we get abused by the principal, but we also get it from the students and PARENTS. > > ``` Actually, I think yelling at folks, especially yelling between adults, is unacceptable. If the student is a discipline problem, there are guidelines the school district has for you to follow. If the parent is abusive to you, you also have the right to recourse in the courts. Nowhere did I assert the opposite. > [@](#): > > I can’t even tell you how many times I have been cursed at, threatened with physical violence, and had items stolen from me. Most jurisdictions consider it a crime, or at least a misdemeanor, to threaten another person with physical violence or to steal from another person. > [@](#): > > Yet I keep going back to the school because I love the kids… who’s enlightened now? That does not address the issue of your failure to avail yourself of the remedies available to you. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Fourth: Teaching is a profession. Peform your duties and obligations in a professional manner or get sued for malpractice. > > ``` > I do perform my duties quite well, actually. . You aren't there, so you don't know that my reading scores went up quite a bit this year. > > ``` If you say so. > [@](#): > > ``` > Parenting is an obligation, as well (see point #2) > > ``` And this abdicates you of your obligations exactly how? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Last: Exactly how many times in your career have the following actually occurred at the schools where you taught while you were there: > > ``` > it's the only school I've ever been at, and I've been there 5 years. > > ``` So you base your knowledge of other schools, where you’ve never been, on your knowledge of just one school? Fascinating, given your comment above. [quote] > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]guns found on campus[/ul][/li][/quote] > > ``` > not guns, but we have confiscated several knives and items that could be used as clubs. > > ``` Notebooks can also be used as weapons. You brought up guns and I specically asked about guns. [quote] > [@](#): > > [ul][li]drugs found on campus[/ul][/li][/quote] > > ``` > we expelled a girl just a few weeks ago for having weed. > > ``` So, you are able to enforce some discipline at this school, I take it? > [@](#): > > Some of our students brag about coming to school high or getting high in the bathroom. And you do not send the students you expect of being high to the school nurse for a cursory examination? Amazing. [quote] > [@](#): > > [li]bomb threat[/list][/li][/quote] > > ``` > we've had 4 this school year, some schools have one every week. > > ``` I did not ask about some schools. I asked about your school. I’m ignoring the rest of your post mainly because of your asinine comment about me at the end. You will notice that I did not call you an ass; I merely indicated that the comment was asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065/43 "2001-05-14T02:56:46Z")
Zygstardst: Thank you. I’d like to address just this portion of your posting: > [@](#): > > **The teachers don’t get treated any better by the school bureaucracy than the students do.** The most teachers should have to do is to stop bullying incidents they see and report them to someone else for further and decisive handling. The teachers are [sub]presumably[/sub] adults and thus are well aware, or should be well aware, of the avenues they have for resolution of grievances they may have with the school or district administration. These avenues include, usually, a union, an EEO representative, the courts, and governmental representatives at local, state, and federal levels. When I first joined the military, my Drill Sergeant (yes, I started out in the Army before I realized the Navy’s the way to go), when he was explaining a couple of programs to us, said, “If you don’t apply, it’s YOU who told you NO.” That man was brilliant. I agree that the teacher should report the bullying to someone for decisive AND EFFECTIVE disposition. The situation described in the OP appears to be a mass abdication of responsibility at that particular school. As that situation is in the past, one can only hope that particular school has improved. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065/44 "2001-05-14T03:33:30Z")
> [@](#): > > In addition to the situations mentioned above, One wonders why you didn’t mention an actual incident instead of bringing up guns earlier. > [@](#): > > we have had a lot of vandalism and a lot of gang activity this year. Vandalism is illegal. Has the district taken measures to prevent it? Are there not police patrols at random intervals when school is not in session? Does this vandalism happen during school hours and if so, are the appropriate authorities called to investigate? > [@](#): > > In the past, I have taught pregnant girls and mothers (keep in mind, I teach 7TH GRADE). Very commendable, you doing your job. > [@](#): > > I have had kids fall asleep during class because they didn’t get any sleep the previous night because the cops were called because Mom’s Boyfriend beat Mom up (Mom took him back in a few days later). That assuredly isn’t the only reason students fall asleep in your class, is it? I can think of at least two other likely explanations to supplement yours. > [@](#): > > I’ve had kids that have been sexually assaluted at a young age. I’ve had kids that were afraid to go home, because they were afraid of either how drunk or high their parent (notice I didn’t say parents. A lot of my kids only have one, some live with grandparents or other relatives) will be or they are afraid of how bad the beating will be that night. I’ve had kids that the only meals they get are the ones the school offers. I’ve had kids whose parent is incarcerated. I’ve had kids that were homeless because either the caretaker couldn’t pay rent or Mom got thrown out by the Boyfriend. And do you not refer such situations to the appropriate authorities (CPS, etc.)? If not, why not? > [@](#): > > I’ve had kids with Dahmer tendencies. Oh, so you do practice medicine? :rollseyes: > [@](#): > > I’ve had kids whose parent(s) had AIDs or Hepatitis, and we weren’t sure if the kid was infected (Legally, it’s private info and we aren’t let in on that). Then why do you mention it? Anyway, so long as the child, if HIV+ isn’t screwing any of the other students or injecting infected body fluids into the other students, that’s a nonissue. > [@](#): > > I’ve had kids that have assaulted their parents. So you’re aware of at least some violent students and know to watch them? > [@](#): > > I’ve had kids whose parents were either younger or the same age as me (I’m a few weeks away from 28) I can’t fathom what the parent’s age has to do with the caliber of education a child receives. Oh, well. Care to elucidate? > [@](#): > > Most of my kids have some sort of parental role with their siblings either for the forementioned reasons or the fact that the parent works at night. Kind of hard for that child to do the parenting while in school, isn’t it? What does any of that have to do with the teacher or principal abdicating obligations? > [@](#): > > We have contacted the proper authorities about these situations, sometimes to no avail. Or perhaps the investigation turned up some other information to which you were not party. > [@](#): > > They’ve given up on the kids in that area. I trust you are aware of the difference between a **fact** and an **opinion** , and that you just posted an opinion without supporting data. > [@](#): > > Wanna come teach at my school? Let’s see how long you’d last… I don’t think you would continue to go back to them even after 5 years because you love them, would you? First: I certainly hope you do not mean to imply that I hate children. _This is the comment to which I referred as being asinine_. Second: I am not certified as a teacher, and thus am not authorized to teach. Third: Wanna come defend the country at sea? I did that for the majority of my career. Come to think of it, plenty of civilians, to include teachers, who had never been in the military were more than willing to tell me how to do that. Also, plenty of civilians, to include teachers, who had been in the military weighed in on the issue also. So you see, your comment above about being on your shoes is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065/45 "2001-05-14T05:24:07Z")
A teacher is obligated to teach the district curriculum as spelled out in the teacher’s contract. A part of this responsibility is to maintain order in the classroom. A teacher who does not have control cannot teach. If the rash of incidents described in the OP happened in the classroom during class, and the teacher permitted them or did not take reasonable measures to intercede on behalf of the victim, then that teacher was indeed at fault. As described in the OP, the teacher did take reasonable steps to intercede, even coming to the defense of the victim when she finally had enough and retaliated. If most of the incidents took place outside of the classroom–and bullies almost always choose areas where they cannot be or are not being closely observed–and such incidents are reported to the proper disciplinary authority, it then becomes the responsibility of that authority (usually vice-principal or principal) to deal with the problem. This was not a mass abdication of responsibility. It may have been a mistake on the part of the principal for not dealing more forcefully with the bully earlier, but it this is not a clear cut case. The situation described was a very tricky one even for the principal and counselor, as there was no physical violence involved. Teasing can be, and in the OP, obviously was, traumatic; it can, as in the OP, reach the level of harassment. I am not trying to diminish what happened to this girl. But such situations present a very thin line for the school. I have, on two occasions, had formal complaints (both dismissed) filed by parents of students after I disciplined them for teasing other students in my class. Had I not disciplined them, I would have been risking complaints from the students being teased. I usually err on the side of the victim. But sometimes it can be very difficult to determine exactly what happened, and what the severity of the harassment was. The bottom line is that the situation in the OP was not as cut and dried as it seems to some people who have been posting here. This was not mass abdication of responsibility, nor malpractice. It was an error on the part of the principal for not interceding earlier, and for exercising poor judgement in disciplining both students in the same way. My advice to the parents of students who have been bullied: 1. Contact the teacher if this is elementary school, and either the counselor or principal if it is secondary. Go there in person, and be willing to discuss the situation rationally and calmly. You’ll get a much better response. Go with the attitude that this is a problem that you and the school should work together to solve, and be willing to cooperate with any reasonable measures proposed by the school. 2. Contact the school _every_ time a further incident occurs. Again, doing so in person is more effective than by letter or phone. Continue contacting the school with every incident. Every single one. Often, the teacher or principal doesn’t know about the entire pattern because it has not been reported. Reporting every incident enables the school to create a paper trail that makes more severe disciplinary measures easier to enforce. 3. If you are not satisfied with the school’s response, contact the next person in the chain, and keep doing so until you run out of options. 4. This is the point at which you should consider legal action. To start with going to a lawyer is to make an adversary out of the school. Problems can usually be solved better through cooperation than confrontation. That said, if cooperation doesn’t work, by all means, go to a lawyer. But always keep that as a last resort. Even a “lawyer letter” is more likely to antagonize people you want on your side. Don’t do that unless you have no other choice. ---
**Author:** ![ignatzmouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b2d939/32.png) [@ignatzmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ignatzmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065/46 "2001-05-14T05:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > May I respectfully inquire which of society’s problems that we are currently trying to solve in the schools actually should not be handled there? If none, why shouldn’t bullying be handled there? After all, it occurs there. I apologize if I did not make myself clear. I do believe that any individual incidence of bullying must be addressed in the school; however, I interpreted the OP to be a general question about how to solve the problem of bullying. For this, I think we have to look both within and without the schools to find a solution to this problem. The level of civility among students has declined over the past two or three decades, and I don’t think that schools can be held entirely, or even principally, to blame. This is one area in which I agree with true conservatives: the most important problems we face cannot be solved by government alone. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065/47 "2001-05-14T14:51:56Z")
Please be so kind as to correct “And you do not send the students you expect of being high to the school nurse for a cursory examination?” in my posting above to “And you do not send the students you suspect of being high to the school nurse for a cursory examination?” Also correct “on your shoes” in my posting above to “in your shoes.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-about-school-bullies/65065.md?page=2)