# What can we do, now, to prevent Pubs from suppressing Dem votes in 2008? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621 "2007-03-26T23:37:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/61 "2007-03-29T13:44:01Z")
Well you guys have to rise up and resist Mugabe’s attempts to rig the election. Oh, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/62 "2007-03-29T14:11:38Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] It wasn’t MY party that almost pathetically handed out ballot slates to AA voters claiming that local Republican candidates were the endorsed Democrats (a trick they apparently tried again to no avail in Maryland). And so on. So again, its going to take some convincing. [/QUOTE] [This was your party, wasn’t it?](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4196/is_20060121/ai_n16015652) > [@](#): > > After a two-week felony trial culminating with notes from a conflicted jury, four Kerry-Edwards campaign workers including the sons of U.S. Rep. Gwen Moore (D-Wis.) and former Acting Mayor Marvin Pratt had their charges in the Election Day 2004 tire-slashing reduced to misdemeanors and accepted the deal. > > The fifth Democratic staffer accused of crippling Republican vans won a jury acquittal by sticking with a fight against the felony charge. > > …All five defendants had been charged with damaging 40 tires on 25 rented vans parked outside Republican Party offices on W. Capitol Drive, hours before they were to be deployed for electioneering. I think your protestations of Democratic innocence are a bit misplaced, and I haven’t been claiming special Republican virtue in this thread. So why don’t we apply our energies to fixing the system in general, as I suggested above. Otherwise, you’ll just shout fraud at people who will shout fraud back at you, and nothing will get done. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/63 "2007-03-29T14:37:22Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Bricker’s fun little Virginian Republican party that he wines and dines with planned to bus in people from out of state to stand around polling places in quasi-policey uniforms and harass people about whether they had all the legal affairs of voting straight, (coincidentally this was planned to happen only in AA districts, where you wouldn’t think the Republican party would want to be so considerate as to help that bloc of voters to vote). This, of course, was the downgraded version from simply sending police officers to patrol polling locations in AA districts, which they are no longer allowed to do thanks to a court order. [/quote] You may personally hold whatever beliefs you please. But when you start to urge that we all, as a society, should adopt practices or measures you’re going to need to do a little better than personal anecdotes. I can show you plenty of cites of Democrats actually convicted of vote fraud crime, which to my way of thinking is a damn sight better than your claims of “I saw such-and-so happen” – not to impugn your honesty, but just to point out that for a neutral observer, surely you agree that a criminal conviction carries more persuasive weight some guy’s story. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/64 "2007-03-29T17:06:18Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] You may personally hold whatever beliefs you please. But when you start to urge that we all, as a society, should adopt practices or measures you’re going to need to do a little better than personal anecdotes. I can show you plenty of cites of Democrats actually convicted of vote fraud crime, which to my way of thinking is a damn sight better than your claims of “I saw such-and-so happen” – not to impugn your honesty, but just to point out that for a neutral observer, surely you agree that a criminal conviction carries more persuasive weight some guy’s story. [/QUOTE] We can cite local incidents here and there on both sides of the aisle as to elements of foul play (one of the guys that ran the Senate side of Bush’s machine in 2004 is currently in jail, and its now possible that more would be if the Justice Department hadn’t terminated the investigation in one of the growing number of cases in which it looks like political pressure was exerted on US Attorneys): that’s simply dodging the issue. But I’m talking about what is standard practice in virtually every campaign I’ve worked on, which is the issue of voter suppression vs. the claims of systematic voter fraud. The former is common practice: virtually every election finds some new systematic Republican program to discourage people from voting and make it as difficult as possible. The latter is largely ephemeral, with scattered cases here and there with no coordinated structure. It’s also worth noting that “my party” referred to the campaigns I was working on, wherein I had a pretty darn good view of whether we undertook any pushing for voter fraud. I also happened to have a pretty good view of what the Republican practice was. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/65 "2007-03-29T17:32:43Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I can show you plenty of cites of Democrats actually convicted of vote fraud crime [/QUOTE] And you can be shown plenty of cases of Republicans actually convicted of vote suppression crime. > [@](#): > > The scheme devised by state and national Republicans jammed local Democratic ride-to-the-polls and a nonpartisan get-out-the-vote phone bank for about 90 minutes on Election Day 2002, the year of a hotly contested U.S. Senate race between then-Gov. Jeanne Shaheen, a Democrat, and then-U.S. Rep. John Sununu, a Republican, who won. The case resulted in four criminal convictions, including that of strategist James Tobin, of Bangor, Maine, who was New England chairman of President Bush’s re-election campaign two years later. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/66 "2007-03-29T19:30:53Z")
Here’s a pretty good article from a career civil rights lawyer who worked under both Republicans and Democratic administrations testifying to the way in which this issue has been systematically politicized: > **[Bush's long history of tilting Justice](https://www.latimes.com/la-oe-rich29mar29-story.html)** > > The administration began skewing federal law enforcement before the current U.S. attorney scandal, says a former Department of Justice lawyer. Here’s another discounting the claim of widespread voter fraud: > **[Bush's long history of tilting Justice](https://www.latimes.com/la-oe-rich29mar29-story.html)** > > The administration began skewing federal law enforcement before the current U.S. attorney scandal, says a former Department of Justice lawyer. Which notes: > [@](#): > > But at least 11 percent of voting-age Americans, disproportionately elderly and minority voters, lack the necessary papers. Required documentation such as naturalization paperwork can cost as much as $200. **By contrast, when the poll tax was declared unconstitutional in 1966, it was $1.50 ($8.97 in 2007 dollars).** ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/67 "2007-03-29T21:50:56Z")
Great article, Apos. Some key excerpts: > [@](#): > > Under the Bush administration, however, all that changed. Over the last six years, this Justice Department has ignored the advice of its staff and skewed aspects of law enforcement in ways that clearly were intended to influence the outcome of elections. > > It has notably shirked its legal responsibility to protect voting rights. From 2001 to 2006, no voting discrimination cases were brought on behalf of African American or Native American voters. U.S. attorneys were told instead to give priority to voter fraud cases, which, when coupled with the strong support for voter ID laws, indicated an intent to depress voter turnout in minority and poor communities… > > Missouri had one of the closest Senate races in the country last November, and a week before the election, Schlozman brought four voter fraud indictments against members of an organization representing poor and minority people. This blatantly contradicted the department’s long-standing policy to wait until after an election to bring such indictments because a federal criminal investigation might affect the outcome of the vote. The timing of the Missouri indictments could not have made the administration’s aims more transparent. > > This administration is also politicizing the career staff of the Justice Department. Outright hostility to career employees who disagreed with the political appointees was evident early on. Seven career managers were removed in the civil rights division. I personally was ordered to change performance evaluations of several attorneys under my supervision. I was told to include critical comments about those whose recommendations ran counter to the political will of the administration and to improve evaluations of those who were politically favored. :sigh: What’s most encouraging is how these DoJ anecdotes are coming from Republicans, so the hue & cry about “grandstanding” & “political theater” & “fishing expedition” can be refuted, since the only way to do so is further malign the integrity of GOPers whose commitment is to country first, party second. Here’s hoping more rays of sunshine are coming… ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/68 "2007-03-30T10:37:51Z")
My friends in the VRWC assure me that there is nothing that you can do !!! Your only hope is to counter it by say… raising lots of money for ACORN. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/69 "2007-03-30T11:20:47Z")
Mr. Rich’s story should dominate the news and he should be telling this to congressional committees carried live on every network. But the Republican media won’t be picking up on this. We’ll have a better chance of seeing another report that Anna Nicole is still dead than of seeing this get any significant airtime. If it isn’t in the media, it doesn’t exist. I’d like to see Hillary and Obama and Edwards beating the drums for this but I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/70 "2007-03-30T15:10:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] If you have any evidence of Dems acting to suppress Pub votes – bring it [/QUOTE] [Sure.](http://www.politicalgateway.com/main/columns/read.html?col=434) [ul] [li]Ohio Republicans called and told the election is a day later.[/li][li]Florida Court rules Democrat flyers given to Republicans intimidating and misrepresentative[/li][li]Ohio Court rules [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) intimidating and harassing voters[/li][li]GOP volunteers attacked in Philidelphia[/li][li]AFL-CIO coordinates attacks on Republicans in Orlando[/li][/ul] And then there’s [ACORN.](http://www.epionline.org/study_detail.cfm?sid=78) The NAACP’s [crack for votes](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/NEWS09/410190343) policy. Wisconsin’s [Kerry-leaning voter fraud.](http://michellemalkin.com/archives/001262.htm) And of course what was mentioned upthread. Look, if you think the Democrats’ hands are clean you’re deluding yourself. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/71 "2007-03-30T15:59:42Z")
Wow! That _Toldeo Blade_ article is a blockbuster! 124 false affidavits! One hundred twenty-four! Gasp! The sheer massiveness, an avalanche of turpitiude, a crushing wave of Democrat skullduggery, swamping the Republicans with a _tsunami_ of \*one hundred twenty four \* false affidavits! “Landslide Lyndon” would be proud! We should all be grateful to the \*Toledo Blade \* for its courage in staring down the fierce wrath of the Democrat machine and their brutal grasp on power, thwarting the imperial designs of the NAACP and the perfidy etc. etc. Oh, wait. Youi weren’t kidding, were you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/72 "2007-03-30T16:00:48Z")
Michelle Malkin? Maybe you were kidding after all. Kinda hope so. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/73 "2007-03-30T16:05:41Z")
Oh, please. The ACVR isn’t non-partisan. It was founded by Thor Hearne and Jim Dyke, two Republican pols. Hearne was National General Counsel for Bush/Cheney 04 and Dyke was RNC Communications Director and also worked in Cheney’s office. This sham group is debunked up one side of the web and down the other. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/74 "2007-03-30T17:29:33Z")
Oh, sorry, I thought the standard of proof was “maybe kinda sorta with the possibility of wrongdoing but not really proven” that was being thrown around. Yes, when I googled “Democratic voter fraud” those are the ones that came up first. So, the ACVR reported ACTUAL COURT CASES AND DECISIONS (which is what I noted), but it’s still dismissed? A person working to register Democrats commits fraud and it’s still dismissed. Michelle Malkin submits proof that there was fraud in Wisconsin but it’s dismissed because she’s Michelle Malkin? Okee doke. \*\*elucidator \*\* even acknowledges that fraud took place, but does’t feel it’s important. \*\*BobLibDem \*\* believes in the “Republican media,” so I have no idea what sources will satisfy him. But fine. Topeka Capital-Journal, 11/12/02:[Kansas Democratic Party releases flyer that encourages illegal voting.](http://cjonline.com/stories/111202/bre_agrace.shtml) (registration may be required) New York Daily News: [46,000 illegal voters in NY and Florida - 68% Dem, 12% Rep](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200410/ai_n9460105) [DNC makes fake, impersonated phone calls claiming Schwarzkopf endorses Kerry](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/11/1/202130.shtml) [New Jersey machines pre-select Democratic candidate.](http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=elections&id=4737362) And again, the things Mr. Moto cited. Is seriously the best you can respond is saying, “Michelle Malkin? Please.” Look, I’m not even defending the Republicans here. I’m just tired of hypocrisy and a statement like [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] If you have any evidence of Dems acting to suppress Pub votes – bring it! [/QUOTE] needs to be responded to, and if you can’t see that then you’re being intellectually dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/75 "2007-03-30T17:35:08Z")
I’ve thought it over. I’m going to stick with “Michelle Malkin? Please.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/76 "2007-03-30T17:43:56Z")
This is why I supported the approach I did - that the commission recommendations be adopted in their entirety. Otherwise you just have this kind of partisan sniping. Does anyone here have a problem with these recommendations? ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/77 "2007-03-30T17:55:03Z")
Eh, I’ve realized it’s not worth the time. I realize that I’m actually off topic by talking about voter fraud rather than voter suppression, which I apologize for. :smack: So, enjoy. And **elucidator** , I’m not buying the fact that you actually thought about it one bit! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/78 "2007-03-30T18:06:40Z")
I don’t think it is off-topic in the least. I think anything done by either side to screw around with the electoral process lessens public faith in the process, increases cynicism, and encourages hatred of elected officials and rejection of their legitimacy. That is why it is misguided to ignore vote fraud cases, no matter their severity. The public needs to know that the system is ironclad. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/79 "2007-03-30T18:23:47Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Does anyone here have a problem with these recommendations? [/QUOTE] Not at all – so long as the “Real ID” card is issued for **free,** as I stated above. I’ve always argued that a national ID card is not as threatening as some assume. But the Clinton-Boxer “Count Every Vote Act” should also be implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2007, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621/80 "2007-03-30T19:10:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What can we do, starting now, to make sure the 2008 elections will be free, fair and clean? [/QUOTE] In Detroit, at least, there aren’t enough polling stations. I’ve waited _hours_ to vote in 2004. Many people, including myself, ended up leaving the line because of work. I came back later that evening (and waited about an additional hour), but I imagine a lot of other people didn’t. - Honesty [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-do-now-to-prevent-pubs-from-suppressing-dem-votes-in-2008/397621.md?page=5)