# What can we learn about immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917 "2021-02-15T01:52:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/42 "2021-03-02T12:44:15Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > > [@running\_coach](#): > > > > Sounds like the GOP to me. > > To all the people advocating open borders… if you believed that the majority of immigrants would support the GOP, want to ban abortion and gay sex, abolish food stamps and the ACA and - after gaining citizenship - would vote for the next Trump… would you still want to allow them all in? > > (Ad in this thread is for greencardonline - Become an American Citizen 😆.) - There’s not enough potential immigrants to worry about the effect on national policy. What I don’t want is a minority who advocates (and attempts) for a violent overthrow of the government to shove their views down the throats of the majority. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/43 "2021-03-02T13:01:55Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > There’s not enough potential immigrants to worry about the effect on national policy. 158 million adults say they would like to immigrate to the US if they could. How many votes in key states was the last election decided by? > **[More Than 750 Million Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could](https://news.gallup.com/poll/245255/750-million-worldwide-migrate.aspx)** > > Fifteen percent of the world's adults -- or more than 750 million people -- say they would like to move to another country if they had the opportunity. This is up from previous years, but still shy of the record high of 16% set between 2007 and 2009. But it’s a hypothetical anyway. If you thought there would be enough immigrants to change national policy, and they were likely to change it in ways you oppose, would you still support open borders? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/44 "2021-03-02T13:05:56Z")
158 million would _like_ to immigrate. Doesn’t mean they _can_. Secondly, assuming they will all vote the same way is a hypothetical of ridiculous proportions. Let’s deal in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/45 "2021-03-02T13:32:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > 158 million would _like_ to immigrate. Doesn’t mean they _can_ . Secondly, assuming they will all vote the same way is a hypothetical of ridiculous proportions. Let’s deal in the real world. You don’t need to assume they’d all come in reality or all vote the same way. Just that enough would disagree with you to make a difference. You know a small number of votes can have a big effect. In the real world many if not most countries have very conservative views compared to the US, and so do immigrants from those countries. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/46 "2021-03-02T18:50:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If you thought there would be enough immigrants to change national policy, and they were likely to change it in ways you oppose, would you still support open borders? Yes. You fix now, what needs fixing now. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/47 "2021-03-02T18:56:28Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > vote to keep out would-be immigrants who don’t make a great case for themselves? Ok, I’ll play…can you give me your qualifications for immigration? What makes for a good/bad immigrant. And are they the same for refugees? If not why not? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/48 "2021-03-02T20:01:26Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Yes. > You fix now, what needs fixing now. Fair enough. It’s your funeral… ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/49 "2021-03-02T20:30:45Z")
So here we are in Great Debates…you ask a question. I give you an answer. And your response is “it’s your funeral”??? This was fun, we should do it again sometime! ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/50 "2021-03-02T20:57:41Z")
Okay. My point is, there are good reasons for opposing unrestricted immigration other than economic ones. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/51 "2021-03-02T21:11:46Z")
“Because they might join the other political party” seems like a petty one to me. IMO you either trust in the voice of the people or you don’t. I have faith that my political beliefs can stand up to scrutiny. And if they can’t, then I either have to adjust my belief or strengthen my argument. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/52 "2021-03-02T21:19:07Z")
Personally I like having rights and living in a safe country. I’m not enthusiastic at the idea of inviting in people who’d consider me a second class citizen or fair game for harassment. And if you can’t persuade half of your fellow citizens to support your views, what makes you think you’ll have better luck persuading immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/53 "2021-03-02T21:21:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > To all the people advocating open borders… if you believed that the majority of immigrants would support the GOP, want to ban abortion and gay sex, abolish food stamps and the ACA and - after gaining citizenship - would vote for the next Trump… would you still want to allow them all in? Of course. Because I _don’t_ want to see these people suffer and die just so I can feel superior to them. Unlike some elephant mascot proponents I know. Do you _really_ think we should restrict immigration based on the political views of the immigrants? That sounds like McCarthyism at best, and potentially much worse. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/54 "2021-03-02T21:25:05Z")
I believe that **DemonTree** is from Great Britain and is talking about immigration in general, not specific to the US. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/55 "2021-03-02T21:33:29Z")
I may be naive, but I don’t see immigrants coming to a new country just to change it into their old country. What’s the point? Why not stay where you are? Immigrants come to new countries because it offers something they can’t get at home. Sure there are religious and cultural issues that need to be addressed. But to paraphrase you, if you can’t get half of your country folk on your side maybe you need a better argument. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/56 "2021-03-02T21:34:11Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I believe that **DemonTree** is from Great Britain and is talking about immigration in general, not specific to the US. Yes I am. And why _wouldn’t_ you want to restrict immigration of people who literally enjoy seeing others suffer and die? Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/57 "2021-03-02T21:35:03Z")
Because I don’t believe that to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/58 "2021-03-02T21:35:06Z")
No, of course not. Do you think that hypothetical is particularly relevant? In any case, just because I think immigrants should be welcome as a general rule doesn’t mean I don’t think we should make an effort to weed out those who are actively intent on harming our country. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/59 "2021-03-02T21:49:22Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I may be naive, but I don’t see immigrants coming to a new country just to change it into their old country. What’s the point? Why not stay where you are? Immigrants come to new countries because it offers something they can’t get at home. Sure there are religious and cultural issues that need to be addressed. But to paraphrase you, if you can’t get half of your country folk on your side maybe you need a better argument. Some come for greater freedom, some come to escape from war or other dangers, most come for the economic opportunity. Wanting to get rich != wanting to adopt a different culture or social mores. And like it or not, people bring their culture with them. With a low level of immigration they will have to integrate and probably gradually change their views, but that’s not necessarily so with a high level. Think how long it has taken to get eg. equal rights and respect for women, or acceptance for gay people. I don’t want to have that fight all over again. And the other aspect is that people with fewer ties to each other will not be so keen on a high level of social security. Immigrant countries usually have more libertarian views. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > Because I don’t believe that to be true. Sorry, that was supposed to be a reply to @DrCube. I’m not worried about not being able to get people on my side because I’m not the one who believes half my fellow citizens are some kind of sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/60 "2021-03-02T22:15:23Z")
No, you apparently instead believe that half of non-citizens are sociopaths. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917/61 "2021-03-02T22:23:13Z")
Certainly not. I do think people brought up in different countries learn different values, and bring those values with them to some extent if they move. People in the US and UK had different values in the past, too, and those took time to change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-we-learn-about-immigration/932917.md?page=4)