# What can you say to a website like this? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 28, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465 "2005-04-28T00:44:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/41 "2005-04-28T10:15:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Have you ever looked at a map? If I’m not mistaken, Iraq isn’t our own soil. I suppose that the National Guard gets to choose when and where they want to serve? That is news to me. I didn’t volunteer to head to Iraq so much as I was voluntold. > [@mswas](#): > > Oh really? So which state would they pay taxes to when stationed overseas? I WAS talking about tax issues if you do recall. Not every overseas location gets tax-free status. You remain a citizen of whatever state you are from (or are currently living if you wish it) regardless of where you are stationed. That is why even though I have been stationed in VA for 4 years I still pay CA taxes. > [@mswas](#): > > I disagree with this line of logic. If our elected representatives ask us to do something that is morally reprehensible then we should not do it. Huh? I don’t know about you, but I am not willing to spend years in jail, forfeit most of my pay, and ruin the rest of my life with a dishonerable discharge just because I don’t agree with the exact politics of my country. Military members have no choice (unless they would like to be heavily penalized) and lots get suckered into the job with false promises. As for the rest of it all. Fuck you. You have no right to act like you can divine all of my reasons for joining the military. By using your line of reasoning you are just as much at fault for the murder of Iraqis as I am. You are directly supporting us with your tax money so that only leaves you with two options if you wish to absolve yourself of directly supporting this death machine: 1)Move to another country that supports your views better than America does, or 2)Live in America, but stop paying your taxes. What? Neither of those are real choices, you say? Then I guess you just ran across the same dilema that I am in. I say it again, FUCK YOU and your hypocritical ranting. ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/42 "2005-04-28T10:41:01Z")
I would just like to offer my support to **mswas** for stating better than I can what I think is a very good standpoint. I agree 100% with your stance, and would hope more people look at it like that. And just for the hell of it : _Why do you hate America?_ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/43 "2005-04-28T12:15:43Z")
“What can you say to a website like this?” Response: Do you need attention _that_ badly? It comes across as a con job by a nobody who desperately wants to be noticed, even in such a dumb context. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/44 "2005-04-28T12:29:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Al Qaeda never wanted to stop me from having the freedom of speech. The only comfort I can find in this situation is that those who don’t support the troops tell idiotic lies like the above. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/45 "2005-04-28T12:38:03Z")
The OP’s link (and **Fear Itself** ’s mirror link) don’t work for me. Anybody else not getting the connection? ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/46 "2005-04-28T13:08:56Z")
I’d just like to point out that the sentiments that **mswas** expressed are throughly disturbing to me. I completely disagree with the war in Iraq, I think that Bush is a terrible president, but the idea of holding soldiers responsible for those they kill in iraq is asinine and fucked up. Sure, those soldiers chose to join the military (although some may not have had much choice there), but they do not have the option to chose to not go to Iraq, and for the the sake of having a functional military, this is how it needs to be. When you join the military, you put your trust in the leaders of the country to use you appropriately, and to not waste your life on unworthy causes. Sometimes, though it does happen. Now, there are cases where soldiers could and should be held responsible for their actions abroad, but to say that you hold them personally responsible for any and all deaths caused in the course of duty is plain dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/47 "2005-04-28T13:16:17Z")
The “Forsake the Troops” site is a fraud. This hit the conservative internet echo chamber back in February; I thought this Crook guy was thoroughly discredited. When the news broke that he was a fraud, he got lots of attention on conservative blogs. I did some digging about this little worm and put it on my blog: [http://trueorbetter.blogspot.com/2005/02/do-it-yourself-cointelpro.html](http://trueorbetter.blogspot.com/2005/02/do-it-yourself-cointelpro.html) I figured Crook had to have pulled the plug by now. Ah, well. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/48 "2005-04-28T13:32:53Z")
Just chiming in in my last few hours here on the dope to say that I also agree with **mswas** ’s position. > [@](#): > > Now, there are cases where soldiers could and should be held responsible for their actions abroad, but to say that you hold them personally responsible for any and all deaths caused in the course of duty is plain dumb. Each soldier always has the choice of whether to pull the trigger or not. He may, on evaluation, believe that the consequences of not pulling the trigger are worse than pulling the trigger, and he may be under orders to pull the trigger, but nevertheless, his decision to pull the trigger belongs to him and no one else, and he will answer for it on the last day. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/49 "2005-04-28T16:53:55Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > The freedoms and rights of the United States didn’t spring solely (or even mostly) from the military; instead, they came into being thanks to a combination those who had the foresight to put them to paper and law, the citizens who worked hard to keep this country going, and to our military strength. Yes, we’re a successful country due in part to our military, but that’s nowhere near the whole story. We’re a force in the world also due to our economic power, our educational system, our innovation, our ethics and the simple, day-to-day hard work of most everyone. > > Again, you have earned no right for me, nor for anyone else. You’re simply part of the machine which powers this country. A ditch-digger “earns” his right to free speech on a daily basis just as much as you do: by being a United States citizen and taking part of the system. Exchange the word “defend(ed)” for “earned” and you solve the dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/50 "2005-04-28T17:01:21Z")
Well, it looks like I was had. I hadn’t seen or heard anything about this before. Still, the sentiments on that website are simply nauseating. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/51 "2005-04-28T17:20:37Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Exchange the word “defend(ed)” for “earned” and you solve the dilemma. That’s the problem though, outside of conflicts where people are trying to take our freedoms away, they’re not being defended, because, well, they’re not being attacked. And earned? Again, maybe the revolutionary war, WWII, etc… but if nobody wants to invade us, then the folks who earned our freedoms are our founding fathers who saw fit to write them into law. And, I mean, heck, I’m sure this has been done to death, but our civil liberties were much more negatively affected by Bush’s actions than Bin Laden’s. I haven’t noticed the military doing anything about that lately. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/52 "2005-04-28T17:23:34Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Well, it looks like I was had… This time, yes. Next time, no. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/53 "2005-04-28T17:39:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This time, yes. Next time, no. Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/54 "2005-04-28T17:45:11Z")
Simply expressing my confidence that you are too smart to make the same mistake twice. After all, you married well, didn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/55 "2005-04-28T18:00:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > fushj00mang: In my opinion your fighting is actually hurting America. It props up and legitimizes a regime that passes bills like the USA Patriot act. I don’t think you are doing anything to defend my freedom of speech. You are a member of the single most detrimental military force in the world to my freedom of speech. You are the strong arm that would be turned against me if I excercised my freedom of speech too liberally. I don’t think you’re doing me any favors at all. In fact I think you’re hurting me, I think what you are doing is bad for me and bad for my family and bad for my country, and bad for my race as a whole. I think you are personally responsible. But I want you to understand, this doesn’t mean I would spit in your face as a returning soldier, it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t listen to your war stories if you told them to me, it doesn’t mean that I would hate you in any way shape or form. I just strongly disagree with your actions, and I want you to know that my freedom of speech and your actions are in no way related. The thing I know is that I’ll go to my grave speaking my mind, and another thing I believe, is that if I am killed for doing it, it will be by someone like you following orders from the United States Government. > > Al Qaeda never wanted to stop me from having the freedom of speech. They wanted to stop YOU from rolling tanks through the middle east, and the only way they could think of was to crush the US economy. > > Erek > [@Oath Of Enlistment](#): > > I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all Enemies, Foreign and domestic; that I will Bear True Faith and Allegiance to the same, and that I will obey the Orders of the President of the United States and the Orders of the Officers Appointed Over Me, according to Regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, so help me God. Talking points: 1, the DoD does not prop up ‘regimes.’ We support and are sworn to obey the duly elected leadership of the United States. If we were propping up a ‘regime’ here in the States, last November 2 would have had tanks in the streets and soldiers keeping Democrats, non-democrat liberals, and independents at home. 2: I, and others in the military, are members of the ONLY military which will guarentee you freedom of speech. By our oath, we are required to kick the asses of anyone who would strive to take that away from you. 3: If ordered to turn against the citizenry of the United States without reason (see Ruby Ridge, Waco, any seperatist or anarchist group,) we are obligated to refuse those orders. A soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine does not blindly follow. We have minds and are encouraged to use them. Legitimate concerns about orders are to be voiced up the chain of command. 4: Who brought up race? 5: If you’re killed by anybody for speaking your mind, it’s more likely to be some snot on the street who disagrees with you, rather than the DoD or any other member/department of the federal government. You just aren’t that important. Sorry. 6: Al Quaeda never wanted you to lose your freedom of speech? Tell that to Zarquoi (sorry about the spelling) and his ‘War On Democracy.’ Tell that to Bin Laden, with his post 9/11 statement about ‘triking the heart of the Great Satan, and all that it stands for.’ And just remember, when he attacked, US tanks wern’t rolling anywhere. They’d sat quietly since '99 when Clinton ordered us to defend Islamic Albanians in Kosovo. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/56 "2005-04-28T19:19:10Z")
I’d just like to second **elucidator** ’s comments in re: confidence in you (and high regard). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/57 "2005-04-28T19:37:06Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Still, the sentiments on that website are simply nauseating. Yeah, I think that’s what they were going for, **Airman**. The far right likes to think that those of us who opposed invading Iraq and who still think it was foolish to go in also “hate the troops.” The troop-haters just aren’t there, so they had to make them up. As a supporter of the U.S. military who doesn’t hope to see increased casualties from Iraqi (or other) insurgent groups, I am particularly rankled by this site, since it’s designed to simplify the debate and to nullify anything my ilk might have to say on the matter. Michael Crook is an enemy of decency, sure, but I also view him as a personal enemy. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/58 "2005-04-28T19:50:38Z")
> [@drgnrdr07](#): > > I suppose that the National Guard gets to choose when and where they want to serve? That is news to me. I didn’t volunteer to head to Iraq so much as I was voluntold. You had a choice to spend time in jail or kill people, you chose to kill people. > [@](#): > > Not every overseas location gets tax-free status. You remain a citizen of whatever state you are from (or are currently living if you wish it) regardless of where you are stationed. That is why even though I have been stationed in VA for 4 years I still pay CA taxes. I thought that only happened if you had a home back in that state. > [@](#): > > Huh? I don’t know about you, but I am not willing to spend years in jail, forfeit most of my pay, and ruin the rest of my life with a dishonerable discharge just because I don’t agree with the exact politics of my country. Military members have no choice (unless they would like to be heavily penalized) and lots get suckered into the job with false promises. That’s unfortunate, it’s sad that that happens, you have my sympathy. > [@](#): > > As for the rest of it all. Fuck you. You have no right to act like you can divine all of my reasons for joining the military. No one divined your reasons personally. You joined, that’s your choice, like I said, ‘more power to you.’ I just wanted to make sure that people understood that they ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR ME and therefore do not have my support. That’s all. Otherwise I don’t hold you personally any ill will, as long as you can recognize that your choices to kill people or support the machinery that kills people are not helping me in any way that I care to be helped. > [@](#): > > By using your line of reasoning you are just as much at fault for the murder of Iraqis as I am. You are directly supporting us with your tax money so that only leaves you with two options if you wish to absolve yourself of directly supporting this death machine: 1)Move to another country that supports your views better than America does, or 2)Live in America, but stop paying your taxes. What? Neither of those are real choices, you say? Then I guess you just ran across the same dilema that I am in. > > I say it again, FUCK YOU and your hypocritical ranting. Perhaps that is true. And for the past couple of years I have made most of my living with social currency, made almost no money, and paid only state taxes. Unfortunately state taxes pay the national guard that’s supposed to be defending me here. However, at the same time, I am passively supporting it, moving to another country isn’t a realistic option, because people like you have made it so that there isn’t really such a thing as another country, everywhere is America now, like it or not. I am stuck in the system just as you are, but I don’t have to make a decision every day knowing that my decision directly impacts the outcome of the dead. Right now I am doing the only thing I can think of to do. I am politically active and working on a lot of things, but that takes time. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Kearse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearse)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/59 "2005-04-28T19:52:54Z")
> [@yBeayf](#): > > Just chiming in in my last few hours here on the dope to say that I also agree with **mswas** ’s position. > Each soldier always has the choice of whether to pull the trigger or not. He may, on evaluation, believe that the consequences of not pulling the trigger are worse than pulling the trigger, and he may be under orders to pull the trigger, but nevertheless, his decision to pull the trigger belongs to him and no one else, and he will answer for it on the last day. Do you pull the trigger on paying your taxes every year? I’d bet yes or you might not be here posting 😉 ---
**Author:** ![fushj00mang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d26b3c/32.png) [@fushj00mang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fushj00mang)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465/60 "2005-04-28T20:25:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I just wanted to make sure that people understood that they ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR ME… Then who, pray tell, are we fighting for? > [@mswas](#): > > And for the past couple of years I have made most of my living with social currency, made almost no money, and paid only state taxes. Unfortunately state taxes pay the national guard that’s supposed to be defending me here. Putting aside the statement that you’re a welfare slouch (unless it’s Social Security you’re refrencing, in which case I retract that shot and apologize for it) what the hell do you think that the National Guard troops who are deployed are doing? If you want to talk about specific defence, look at who does it. Aeorspace Soverignty is defended (in the southeast) not by ANG units, but by the 20th Fighter Wing, out of Shaw AFB (in SC.) Mid atlantic region? Not a single ANG unit, but instead the 1st FW, out of Langley AFB. Land soverignty? Primary responsability falls to the US Army’s 1st Army (seeing as 2nd is in Europe and 3rd is in the Mid-East.) Coastal Defence falls to the 1st and 6th Fleets. Space defense? NORAD, which has NO Guard units attached to it. Do you even understand the concept of a National Guard? These guys, until activated by a Federal callup, only do their thing one weekend a month, two weeks a year (unless activated by the govenor, and most of that is only for disaster relief.) The Guard doesn’t actually ‘guard’ anything. In fact, the National Guard name came from the old UK designation of local forces being the “Home Guard.” Anyway… PS: The webpage author, and mswas are both assholes. Which is worse, however, depends on you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-can-you-say-to-a-website-like-this/301465.md?page=4)